Uncovering the Randomness of Thermal Noise and Nuclear Decay

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Discussion Overview

The discussion explores the nature of randomness in thermal noise and nuclear decay, questioning whether these phenomena can be considered truly random. Participants examine the implications of quantum mechanics on predictability and randomness, engaging in both philosophical and technical considerations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether thermal noise can be predicted even with complete knowledge of the electrons involved, linking this to quantum mechanics.
  • Others argue that true randomness may not exist, suggesting that phenomena could be so random that patterns remain undetectable.
  • A participant asserts that both thermal noise and nuclear decay are indeed truly random, citing quantum mechanics as a basis for unpredictability in decay events.
  • Another participant mentions the Heisenberg Uncertainty Relations as evidence of random distributions in certain conditions, providing an example involving photons and polarizing beam splitters.
  • There is speculation about the existence of underlying causes for randomness, despite a lack of supporting evidence for such claims in quantum contexts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the existence of true randomness, with some asserting it exists in thermal noise and nuclear decay, while others challenge the notion of true randomness altogether. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the philosophical implications of randomness.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the definitions of randomness and predictability, as well as the implications of quantum mechanics that are not fully explored or agreed upon.

countrymac
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1. Is thermal noise truly random?
By truly random I mean can you not predict the next value even if you knew everything permitted about the electrons producing the effect.

Does this follow from the math of quantum physics?

2. What about nuclear decay is it truly random?
 
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I don't think there is such a thing as truly random. Maby something could be so random we could never hope to work out the pattern.
 
countrymac said:
1. Is thermal noise truly random?
By truly random I mean can you not predict the next value even if you knew everything permitted about the electrons producing the effect.

Does this follow from the math of quantum physics?

2. What about nuclear decay is it truly random?

Yes to both 1 and 2.
Whether or not anything is "truly random" is a philosophical question. However, QM does not allow us predict e.g. when a decay even will occur even in principle .
Hence, from a formal and mathematical point of view the answer is yes to both questions.
 
f95toli said:
Yes to both 1 and 2.
Whether or not anything is "truly random" is a philosophical question. However, QM does not allow us predict e.g. when a decay even will occur even in principle .
Hence, from a formal and mathematical point of view the answer is yes to both questions.

Thanks,
Is there anything else we know to be truly random?
 
countrymac said:
Thanks,
Is there anything else we know to be truly random?

Sure. In accordance with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Relations, there are plenty of things that will take on a random distribution of values when a non-commuting attribute is held constant.

A common example is taking a photon of known polarization and passing it through a polarizing beam splitter aligned 45 degrees from the known value. This will yield a truly random stream of photons (as to their new polarization). As far as anyone knows, the input photons are identical and there is no known "cause" that leads any photon to go one path or the other through the beam splitter.

Of course, that doesn't stop folks from speculating that there is a cause. Other than our desire to have a cause for explanatory purposes, there is no supporting evidence for quantum causality in these cases.
 

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