Understanding Frame Dragging: Explanation and Effects

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter keepit
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Frame Frame dragging
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of frame dragging, particularly in the context of General Relativity. Participants explore its theoretical implications, experimental validations, and the nuances of its effects on spacetime, including references to specific models such as Kerr spacetime.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants describe frame dragging as a theory where space is elastic and influenced by the angular momentum of particles, though they note it remains unproven.
  • Others clarify that frame dragging is a feature of General Relativity, primarily concerning macroscopic objects rather than particles, and reference the Gravity Probe B experiment as a test of this phenomenon.
  • A participant discusses the implications of Kerr spacetime, explaining how static observers experience frame dragging differently than those in orbit, highlighting the complexity of the effects involved.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the analogy of spacetime as a trampoline is overly simplified and can lead to misunderstandings about the nature of frame dragging and its effects on observers.
  • There are discussions about the differences in experiences of observers at rest versus those in motion, particularly regarding the induced angular velocities due to frame dragging.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature and implications of frame dragging, with no consensus reached on the simplifications used in analogies or the interpretations of experimental results. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best way to conceptualize and explain frame dragging.

Contextual Notes

Some claims rely on specific definitions and assumptions about spacetime and observer perspectives, which may not be universally accepted. The discussion also touches on the limitations of analogies used to explain complex physical concepts.

keepit
Messages
94
Reaction score
0
What is frame dragging?
 
Space news on Phys.org
in a nutshell its a theory which states space is elastic and particles have inherent spin that can via its angular momentum influence the space around it by exchanging its angular momentum. Keep in mind its a theory that has yet to be proven. Though the link below shows one test with some results. Those results are not enough to validate the theory

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame-dragging
 
This site may provide some useful information.

http://cosmology101.wikidot.com/

one particular article will be of use to help your understanding of cosmology. It has zero maths involved and written as more a FAQ style.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1304.4446

I'm posting the article based on some of your other posts, not to say there is particularly anything wrong with your question. Just that the article will help aid your understanding of current main stay cosmology or in other words the concordance model currently represented by LCDM.
Of course other models may or may not be more acurate that's the fun part of science.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: 1 person
Mordred said:
in a nutshell its a theory which states space is elastic and particles have inherent spin that can via its angular momentum influence the space around it by exchanging its angular momentum. Keep in mind its a theory that has yet to be proven. Though the link below shows one test with some results. Those results are not enough to validate the theory

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame-dragging
I don't think this is strictly correct. Frame dragging is a particular feature of General Relativity. It generally isn't talking about particles, but macroscopic objects. It has been tested for the Earth by Gravity Probe B (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_Probe_B).
 
Consider for example Kerr space-time. The observers who are at rest in the gravitational field (i.e. those who have constant spatial coordinates in the Kerr chart) follow orbits of the time-like killing vector field ##\xi^a = (\partial_t)^a##; these are the static observers. Now even though they are all static, it turns out that their twist 4-vector ##\omega^a = \epsilon^{abcd}\xi_b \nabla_c \xi_d \neq 0##; now ##\omega^a## is nothing more than the curved space-time version of the curl ##\nabla \times \vec{\xi}## from vector calculus so physically what this means is that if a static observer carries with him a set of 3 mutually perpendicular gyroscopes and attaches a displacement vector to an infinitesimally nearby static observer then this displacement vector will rotate relative to the gyroscopes.

But how will an observer sitting at infinity see this? Well to him the observers are all hovering in place (constant spatial coordinates in the Kerr chart) so the displacement vector simply points from one static observer to an infinitesimally nearby static observer and doesn't do anything at all as far as he's concerned, meaning the observer at infinity will see the aforementioned static observer's gyroscopes rotate relative to him i.e. he sees the static observer precess in place. This is an example of frame-dragging.
 
Chalnoth said:
I don't think this is strictly correct. Frame dragging is a particular feature of General Relativity. It generally isn't talking about particles, but macroscopic objects. It has been tested for the Earth by Gravity Probe B (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_Probe_B).


agreed however the OP has posted numerous threads on the applications of Calabai Yau metric applications in cosmology. My response was more geared towards that application. As that model deals primarily with string theory and particle interactions in a 6d manifold rather than cosmological applications.

I may have been mistaken in that regard however
 
Interesting, so Einstein's trampoline is true according to the Gravity Probe B data. The massive Earth warped it and the rotation of the Earth drags its fabric. That is how I understood frame dragging at this moment :-)
 
Romulo Binuya said:
Interesting, so Einstein's trampoline is true according to the Gravity Probe B data. The massive Earth warped it and the rotation of the Earth drags its fabric. That is how I understood frame dragging at this moment :-)

Your description is correct: The Gravity Probe B experiment showed that spacetime near Earth is curved by the Earth's mass, and it is "dragged" by the Earth's rotation.

“According to Einstein’s theory, space and time are not the immutable, rigid structures of Newton’s universe, but are united as spacetime, and together they are malleable, almost rubbery. A massive body warps spacetime, the way a bowling ball warps the surface of a trampoline. A rotating body drags spacetime a tiny bit around with it, the way a mixer blade drags a thick batter around.”

http://einstein.stanford.edu/content/press-media/results_news_2011/C_Will-Physics.4.43-Viewpoint.pdf
 
Actually the description is extremely simplified and often incorrect. The analogy with viscous fluids is often just for gross simplifications to aid with visualization. Frame dragging can cause both precession in the sense described in post #5 and in the sense that observers get dragged into e.g. azimuthal orbits about a central rotating mass.

Going back to the example of Kerr space-time, instead of looking at the static observers one can look at the family of observers following orbits of the time-like vector field ##\nabla^{\mu} t## i.e. ##u^{\mu} = \gamma \nabla^{\mu}t## where ##t## is the canonical global time function and ##\gamma## is the normalization factor. These are the observers who are locally non-rotating i.e. (unlike the static observers) these observers have vanishing twist ##\omega^{\mu} = \gamma^{2}\epsilon^{\mu\nu[\alpha\beta]}\nabla_{\nu}t \nabla_{(\alpha}\nabla_{\beta)}t - \gamma\epsilon^{\mu[\nu\beta]\alpha}\nabla_{(\nu}t\nabla_{\beta)}t\nabla_{\alpha}\gamma = 0##; this means that they don't have any precession in the sense described in post #5.

However, notice that ##\frac{\mathrm{d} \phi}{\mathrm{d} t} = \frac{u^{\phi}}{u^{t}} = \frac{g^{\phi \mu}\nabla_{\mu}t}{g^{t\mu}\nabla_{\mu}t} = \frac{g^{\phi t}}{g^{tt}}## so these observers have non-zero angular velocity about the central rotating body. In other words, the rotation of the central body induces an orbital (in this case azimuthal) angular velocity of said observers about this mass. This is also an example of frame dragging.
 
  • #10
WannabeNewton said:
Consider for example Kerr space-time. The observers who are at rest in the gravitational field (i.e. those who have constant spatial coordinates in the Kerr chart) follow orbits of the time-like killing vector field ##\xi^a = (\partial_t)^a##; these are the static observers. Now even though they are all static, it turns out that their twist 4-vector ##\omega^a = \epsilon^{abcd}\xi_b \nabla_c \xi_d \neq 0##; now ##\omega^a## is nothing more than the curved space-time version of the curl ##\nabla \times \vec{\xi}## from vector calculus so physically what this means is that if a static observer carries with him a set of 3 mutually perpendicular gyroscopes and attaches a displacement vector to an infinitesimally nearby static observer then this displacement vector will rotate relative to the gyroscopes.

But how will an observer sitting at infinity see this? Well to him the observers are all hovering in place (constant spatial coordinates in the Kerr chart) so the displacement vector simply points from one static observer to an infinitesimally nearby static observer and doesn't do anything at all as far as he's concerned, meaning the observer at infinity will see the aforementioned static observer's gyroscopes rotate relative to him i.e. he sees the static observer precess in place. This is an example of frame-dragging.

You're saying:
An observer at rest will witness an object having infinitesimal rotation, because of frame dragging (the larger mass near it is rotating), and not because the object is moving deeper into the larger mass's gravity well?
 
  • #11
Yes an observer at infinity will see a static observer (who is possibly near the central rotating mass) precess in place.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 21 ·
Replies
21
Views
2K
  • · Replies 25 ·
Replies
25
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
965
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
855
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K