News Understanding the Evacuation of Gaza Strip: An In-Depth Discussion

[alexandra]

Lisa! asked that exact question. I have replied - if you have any further questions I would be happy to elaborate...On a personal note, I take insult in the way everyone, but particularly youself, is ignoring the role of the Israeli left in bringing about this move. There are a lot of unhappy Israelis who actually act on their ideas rather than resort to alcohol consumption, and they have a much bigger part in this than the US will ever have. I guess I cannot expect all you who spend so much time criticizing to actually understand those who achieve by hard work and leadership.

Yonoz - an apology and a confession: last night I did not re-read the whole discussion (it is very long) before posting. I was being very unacademic last night, so I have not read your response to Lisa!'s question. I will do this now. So I apologise on two counts: that I did not read the whole thread before posting, and that (probably as a result of my first neglect) you thought I do not consider the actions of the left in Israel as being valid. I will read everything now. Sorry, Yonoz.

 

[Yonoz]

Yonoz - an apology and a confession: last night I did not re-read the whole discussion (it is very long) before posting. I was being very unacademic last night, so I have not read your response to Lisa!'s question. I will do this now. So I apologise on two counts: that I did not read the whole thread before posting, and that (probably as a result of my first neglect) you thought I do not consider the actions of the left in Israel as being valid. I will read everything now. Sorry, Yonoz.

No worries alex.
BTW I, like everyone, have known hard times. What I do is just find something unrewarding to do. I volunteered in a mental hospital before I got my current job - you should try it too, it puts you back in perspective.
Oh and maybe you should stop reading all that negative stuff! I don't think it's doing you any good...
BTW not trying to convert you or anything but following all that bad press about Judaism maybe you should learn about Tikun Olam (roughly translates to "mending (or fixing) the world")

 

[Smurf]

Alexandra, are you trying to form an opinion from the facts or shape the facts to support your opinions?

What's wrong with finding facts to support your opinion? It's called investigating.

 

[loseyourname]

What's wrong with finding facts to support your opinion? It's called investigating.

That depends on the nature of your investigation. As an analogy, consider the difference between a police investigation (idealized) and a prosecutorial investigation (also idealized). The police simply collect all the facts relevant to a given case, with no conclusion they are trying to reach, simply allowing the evidence to take them where it will. The prosecutor, on the other hand, has a vested interest in the guilt of one suspect, and only collects the facts that support him in making a case for that suspect's guilt. All other facts are intentionally ignored in this type of investigation.

 

[The Smoking Man]

That depends on the nature of your investigation. As an analogy, consider the difference between a police investigation (idealized) and a prosecutorial investigation (also idealized). The police simply collect all the facts relevant to a given case, with no conclusion they are trying to reach, simply allowing the evidence to take them where it will. The prosecutor, on the other hand, has a vested interest in the guilt of one suspect, and only collects the facts that support him in making a case for that suspect's guilt. All other facts are intentionally ignored in this type of investigation.

That is also why the defence is allowed to gather evidence and have teams of 'experts' debunk the evidence presented by the prosecution.

Remember OJ?

 

[loseyourname]

That is also why the defence is allowed to gather evidence and have teams of 'experts' debunk the evidence presented by the prosecution.

Of course. The main point being that this is pretty much what we do here. I'd venture to guess that almost no one posting in the Politics subforum is interested in conducting an investigation. They're interested in conducting debates, where they gather evidence to support the opinions they already hold.

Edit: By the way, I'll never forget OJ. That stupid Bronco chase interrupted the NBA finals.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Edit: By the way, I'll never forget OJ. That stupid Bronco chase interrupted the NBA finals.

The Chinese feel your pain.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Of course. The main point being that this is pretty much what we do here. I'd venture to guess that almost no one posting in the Politics subforum is interested in conducting an investigation. They're interested in conducting debates, where they gather evidence to support the opinions they already hold.

The difference here, as I have seen it, has to do with credibility of sources and refusals to examine things posted on 'suspect sites'.

I have seen comments statin that ... Oh, that is a left wing site and I refuse to even go there.'

At the time that happened, I followed that link and found an AFP article that had been preserved by that site that had 'scrolled off the regular news systems'.

And so, the debate had gone like this ...

A: 'I maintain that XXXX is true.'
B: 'I don't believe you. Prove it'
A: 'Look here [link].'
B: 'I won't look there because it is a leftist site.'​

That is the difference between 'investigation in the real world' and here.

 

[Smurf]

Ah the mystical differences between the real world and internet subculture...

 

[The Smoking Man]

Edit: By the way, I'll never forget OJ. That stupid Bronco chase interrupted the NBA finals.

Ironically, I have the same memory of the Kennedy Funeral.

I flicked on the TV to watch my children's shows at the time and there were all these images of a car moving slowly along a parade route.

And, in those days we could only get two channels.

 

[kat]

The difference here, as I have seen it, has to do with credibility of sources and refusals to examine things posted on 'suspect sites'.

I have seen comments statin that ... Oh, that is a left wing site and I refuse to even go there.'

At the time that happened, I followed that link and found an AFP article that had been preserved by that site that had 'scrolled off the regular news systems'.

And so, the debate had gone like this ...

A: 'I maintain that XXXX is true.'
B: 'I don't believe you. Prove it'
A: 'Look here [link].'
B: 'I won't look there because it is a leftist site.'​

That is the difference between 'investigation in the real world' and here.

I want to take a moment to clarify something. I had made a comment on some thread somewhere in regards to...erm something. The link was to commondreams.com, I believe. I stated that I would not click through to that site. I won't...because I refuse to click through to it and increase it's hit ratings. I've found it..to be an unreliable site. Also, there's been some issues raised by the AP and Reuters in regards to sites posting their reports on their sites and changing the contents of reports. So, it's no longer adequate to link to a site that says it's report came via this or that source. Of course..this ignores the fact that mainstream media is often erroneous as well..*Shrug*

 

[vanesch]

Of course. The main point being that this is pretty much what we do here. I'd venture to guess that almost no one posting in the Politics subforum is interested in conducting an investigation.

The Politics subforum is (at least to me) the smoky bar of PF, where you chat with others about improving the world, after a few drinks. Sometimes it is a bit serious, most of the time it is half serious and sometimes it is lunatic.
Nevertheless, in doing so, you learn stuff. Also a great exercise in rethoric

 

[alexandra]

Perfect example how perception is everything.

I have not read the whole thread yet (but am carefully working my way through it - wow, it's long!). But some things people have pointed out so far regarding the allocation of 'guilt' for the Holocaust reminded me of the Social Psychology experiments exploring this very issue that were conducted after WWII by Solomon Ash ( http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/s/so/solomon_asch.htm )and Stanley Milgrim (http://www.muskingum.edu/~psych/psycweb/history/milgram.htm#Theory ).

These experiments basically support the hypothesis that it is what Stanford professor Philip Zimbardo calls 'the power of the situation' (or the pressure to conform/listen to authority) that shapes social reality and influences people's behaviour - and that can (to some extent) explain how an 'entire nation' can be complicit in the violences done in Nazi Germany.

I don't think these social psychology theories adequately by themselves explain the complexity of the situation prevailing in Europe from before WW1 to after WWII (one needs also to look at the economics and politics of the time, and the imperialist rivalries between the major nation players). These theories do, however, offer some sort of psychological explanation for the actions of individuals involved and swept up in the course of historical events they felt they had no control over.

If any of you click on the above links and find them interesting (I found the outcomes of the experiments absolutely fascinating), you may also be interested in exploring Zimbardo's 'Prison Experiment' website: http://www.prisonexp.org/

alex

 

[Smurf]

I want to take a moment to clarify something. I had made a comment on some thread somewhere in regards to...erm something. The link was to commondreams.com, I believe. I stated that I would not click through to that site. I won't...because I refuse to click through to it and increase it's hit ratings. I've found it..to be an unreliable site. Also, there's been some issues raised by the AP and Reuters in regards to sites posting their reports on their sites and changing the contents of reports. So, it's no longer adequate to link to a site that says it's report came via this or that source. Of course..this ignores the fact that mainstream media is often erroneous as well..*Shrug*

Well you've got all your base's covered then don't ya. Yup, no lefty sites for you (or any site at all that disagrees with you)

 

[Townsend]

The Politics subforum is (at least to me) the smoky bar of PF, where you chat with others about improving the world, after a few drinks.

Yes...drink comrade, drink.

http://img335.imageshack.us/img335/9940/frontlable7ro.jpg

http://img311.imageshack.us/img311/2294/leninaide5jn.jpg

I here by nominate leninaide as the official drink of the United PhysicsForums Socialist Party.

 

[vanesch]

Yes...drink comrade, drink.

http://img335.imageshack.us/img335/9940/frontlable7ro.jpg

http://img311.imageshack.us/img311/2294/leninaide5jn.jpg

I here by nominate leninaide as the official drink of the United PhysicsForums Socialist Party.

Haha, funny pictures

 

[kat]

Well you've got all your base's covered then don't ya. Yup, no lefty sites for you (or any site at all that disagrees with you)

I realize that it might be difficult for you to grasp the difference between a site that "disagrees" and a site that is "unreliable"...but maybe you could give it a try...hmm?

 

[TRCSF]

I realize that it might be difficult for you to grasp the difference between a site that "disagrees" and a site that is "unreliable"...but maybe you could give it a try...hmm?

I think you mean commondreams.org

So what is it that makes it unreliable?