Understanding the Four Momentum of a Relativistic Field

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of four momentum in the context of relativistic fields, specifically examining whether the total energy and momentum derived from energy density and momentum density can be classified as a four vector. Participants explore the implications of the stress-energy tensor and its transformation properties under various conditions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether the total energy (E) and momentum (p) of a relativistic field can be considered a four momentum, citing issues with simultaneity in relativity.
  • Others explain that the stress-energy tensor is a rank 2 tensor rather than a four vector, containing energy density, momentum density, and pressure terms.
  • It is noted that the energy and momentum of a point particle transform as a four vector, while those of a non-zero volume system, such as fields, generally do not.
  • Some participants assert that the total energy and momentum of an isolated system will transform as a four vector, but this requires including both the field and the physical object generating it.
  • One participant references J. D. Jackson's work, suggesting that for source-free fields, E and momentum do transform properly.
  • Concerns are raised about the independence of energy calculations from the choice of origin when performing Lorentz boosts.
  • Another participant discusses the conditions under which the divergence of the stress-energy tensor is zero, emphasizing the need for a closed system to maintain conservation laws.
  • Examples are provided, including a unit cube of material under isotropic pressure, illustrating how total energy-momentum does not transform as a four vector under certain conditions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the classification of total energy and momentum as a four vector, with some asserting it is valid under specific conditions while others maintain it is not generally applicable. The discussion remains unresolved with respect to the implications of the stress-energy tensor and the conditions for transformation.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the transformation properties of energy and momentum depend on the system being isolated and the presence of sources. There are also discussions about the necessary conditions for proving certain properties of the stress-energy tensor, including the requirement for surrounding vacuum regions.

  • #31
samalkhaiat said:
Look, don't blame the "infinitesimal proof"! The local structure of any Lie group is determined by studying the group for values of the parameters in the neighbourhood of the identity; i.e., infinitesimal transformations. This is the essential feature of all Lie group including Lorentz group.

I understand that when a members of a group are written in a form e^{\lambda_k u^k} where \lambda_k are some constant objects, and u^k the parameters that are being mapped into the group by this expression, then for example

<br /> D_{\alpha} e^{\alpha \lambda_k u^k}\Big|_{\alpha = 0} = 0<br />

will imply e^{\lambda_k u^k} = 1 for all u^k, and in this sense the infinitesimal behaviour controls the whole group.

Now I want to prove that D_{\alpha} Q(\alpha)=0 for all \alpha\in [0,1], and I don't see how proving this for \alpha=0 only could be sufficient. I don't see how this Q could be even transformed by some explicit representation of some Lie group.

You are missing the essential point and that is : In all Lorentz frames, the charge is independent of time.
So, you could either
1) fix the time from the start and write

\bar{Q} = \int d^{3}\bar{x} \bar{J}^{0}(\bar{x}, \bar{t}) = \int d^{3}x \bar{J}^{0}(x, \bar{t}) = \int d^{3}x \bar{J}^{0}(x;T)

and

Q = \int d^{3}x J^{0}(x;T)

thus

\bar{Q} - Q = \int d^{3}x \left( \bar{J}^{0}(x;T) - J^{0}(x;T) \right)

You are integrating over some three dimensional subsets of the four dimensional spacetime. What are these integration domains?
 
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  • #32
olgranpappy said:
J. D. Jackson addresses this very issue at the bottom of page 607 in his book "Classical Electrodynamics (Third Edition)."

The gist being that, for source free fields, E and \vec P do transform properly. Cheers.

Jackson does not prove this, but only mentions it. Does anyone know if the proof relies only on the transformation properties of the fields, or does it use the equations of motion too? That is relevant for the problem.
 
  • #33
jostpuur said:
I understand that when a members of a group are written in a form e^{\lambda_k u^k} where \lambda_k are some constant objects, and u^k the parameters that are being mapped into the group by this expression, then for example

<br /> D_{\alpha} e^{\alpha \lambda_k u^k}\Big|_{\alpha = 0} = 0<br />

will imply e^{\lambda_k u^k} = 1 for all u^k, and in this sense the infinitesimal behaviour controls the whole group.

I think, you need to read about the properties of Lie groups and Algebras; start by looking at the importance of infinitesimal transformations for deriving Lie Agebras; see post#2 and post#3 in

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=172461


You are integrating over some three dimensional subsets of the four dimensional spacetime. What are these integration domains?

Ok, I thought you would understand the reason for ignoring the Jacobian! Let us start again; the variation of any integral is made of the sum of the variation of the integrand and of the variation in the region of integration;

\delta \int d^{3}x \ J^{0}(x,T) = \int d^{3}x \ \delta J^{0} + \int \delta (d^{3}x) \ J^{0}(x,T)

The first integral vanishes because of Gauss' theorem (we saw that in many posts), so we are left with

\delta Q = \int \delta (d^{3}x) \ J^{0}(x,T)

At fixed time (t = T), we have

\bar{x}^{i} = x^{i} + \omega^{i}{}_{0}T + \omega^{i}{}_{j}x^{j}

And

\frac{\partial \bar{x}^{i}}{\partial x^{j}} = \delta^{i}{}_{j} + \omega^{i}{}_{j}

Thus the Jacobian becomes identical to that of the O(3) transformations;

\mathcal{J}(\frac{\bar{x}}{x}) = | \delta^{i}_{j} + \omega^{i}{}_{j}| \approx 1 + Tr(\omega) = 1

And

d^{3}\bar{x} = \mathcal{J}(\frac{\bar{x}}{x})d^{3}x \approx d^{3}x

Therefore the variation in the region of integration; \delta (d^{3}x) = 0 and we arrive at \delta Q = 0.

sorry for the late reply.


regargs

sam
 
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