Unveiling USA Black Budgets: Is It True?

[Ivan Seeking]

Did we want to tell the Soviets that their massive air defense network was now obsolete because we had developed stealth technology? NO! They would have developed larger and more complex network that may have prepared them.

I have seen several interview in which some of Reagan's people told of our strategy to run the Soviets broke. Allegely this was the basis for the evil empire rhetoric, star wars, and a variety of other disinformation campaings designed to dupe the Soviets into spending themselves out of existence. In the words of David Stockman, I think it was, "it was a race to see who would go broke first". Neither one of us could afford to fight the cold war any longer but with a little help we had calculated that we could win - or in this case lose the race to economic collapse.

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Rail Guns And UFOs

Ok, for Ivan Seeking;

From;
http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/Smokinggun.html
“However you don’t see any “projectiles” in this clip as we did in the STS-48.”

Alright, basically, Hoagland analyses the STS-48 Video and it’s “lights”. He raises the possibility of the Star Wars Rail Gun being used to fire the projectiles (or “Brilliant Pebbles”, which he again, names) at the “evading” light. He even mentions Pine Gap by name, whilst not confirming one way or the other, whether this is the origin of such projectiles.
He then does (quite a thorough – better than ANY other study I’ve seen on the STS-48 Video) a search for any other alternative explanation (to the ET Craft question). Ice particles, etc. etc. – the standard NASA explanation crap. He brings in an Atmospheric Specialist (can’t remember his name) to derive a mathematical formula for determining the size and distance of the objects. Its compelling stuff…
I recommend watching it for anybody interested in these subjects. It’s a MUST.
If I find the time, I'll transcribe the 15 minute segment and type it out and post it (seeing you don't like the illegal option...).

The Larry King Interview;
http://www.open-video.org/details.php?videoid=4876


Info on Rail-Guns;
http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/212.web.stuff/Lars Tulip/Lars web project Folder/What.htm

There’s other froot-loops, like me, out there;
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=cache:w3LuiyATIaEJ:www.mycal.net/rail2.pdf+Rail+Gun&hl=en

Private industry (a bit behind the times…);
http://www.powerlabs.org/railgun.htm

 

[russ_watters]

The one little difference though between stealth and Star Wars is that stealth is real while Star Wars was always a myth.

And stealth did actually invalidate the entire Soviet air defense network. Bhagdad '91 was proof of that. And even today, I don't think there is a deployed system that can shoot it down (though I think the Aussies are working on a radar that might be able to track it). It gave us what may be the biggest technological advantage of any military in (modern) history.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Russ, I'm starting to think the truth about the lie was the lie. In the last ten years I have seen one heck of a lot of news like this.

Laser gun zaps missile
A laser gun, described as "the world's first high-energy laser weapon system designed for operational use", has shot down a missile in a test in the US desert.

We've just turned science fiction into reality

Lieutenant General John Costello, US Army Space and Missile Defense Command
The $250m system was built by TRW Corporation for the US and Israeli governments and was tried out at the White Sands missile range, New Mexico, on Tuesday

During the test of the Tactical High Energy Laser (THEL), it tracked a Katyusha rocket with its radar and then destroyed it with its high-powered laser beam.

The system will be delivered to Israel by the autumn and could be used to intercept Katyusha rockets, which have in the past been fired by guerrillas from the Islamic group Hezbollah, based in southern Lebanon. [continued]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/782696.stm

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Laser Systems Are Operational And Deployed

Of course, Star Wars is real.
Australia has had the US military "breathing down its neck" about deployment options for the last few years.

There were tests done in Palau (Western Pacific trust Territories) over five years ago! Its public record.

And of course, even I, can construct a Rail Gun which will shoot "Brilliant Pebbles" INTO SPACE, with minimum effort! Whilst one must be very "stupid" to do such things (not to mention how illegal it is), its a piece of cake to get the materials needed...

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Trust Territories and Star Wars

Guys, your government routinely LIES to you.
Wake up.

From;
http://www.mymicronesia.com/marshallislands/index.shtml
“Smack dab in the middle of the Pacific lie two great chains of islands, Ralik and Ratak, composed of hundreds of islands, islets and atolls, including the world's largest, Kwajalein. In addition to the legacy of hydrogen bomb testing at Bikini Atoll during the 1950s, Kwajalein continues to be the scene of "Star Wars" missile defense testing, with missiles fired from California being shot down over the atoll's massive lagoon. But like elsewhere in the Pacific, the islanders know that their economic future may lie in tourism, and scuba divers are slowly beginning to trickle into Bikini to dive its nuked shipwrecks.”

Peacekeepers, blah;
http://www.pacificislands.cc/pm42001/pmdefault.php?urlarticleid=0021


Yeh, I know I can only prove that Star Wars is being TESTED.
The reality is it reaches from below the Earth to above the skies - already!

 

[russ_watters]

Russ, I'm starting to think the truth about the lie was the lie. In the last ten years I have seen one heck of a lot of news like this.

It wasn't so much a lie as it was impossible with 80s technology. It did not produce Star Wars, but it did lead to inexpensive CD and DVD players as well as adaptive optics for astronomical telescopes.

But that was then and this is now. Now, the children of Star Wars, things like http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/abl/flash.html , do work. Work on the ABL project began in 1996 though - long after Star Wars died (your link also said THEL started in '96).

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It wasn't so much a lie as it was impossible with 80s technology. It did not produce Star Wars, but it did lead to inexpensive CD and DVD players as well as adaptive optics for astronomical telescopes.

But that was then and this is now. Now, the children of Star Wars, things like http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/abl/flash.html , do work. Work on the ABL project began in 1996 though - long after Star Wars died (your link also said THEL started in '96).

What bothers me about that story is that typically, if it were really that new we wouldn't know about it. Since when do new systems like this bypass the classification process? My guess is that we have been using them for at least a decade.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Guys, your government routinely LIES to you.
Wake up.

From;
http://www.mymicronesia.com/marshallislands/index.shtml
“Smack dab in the middle of the Pacific lie two great chains of islands, Ralik and Ratak, composed of hundreds of islands, islets and atolls, including the world's largest, Kwajalein. In addition to the legacy of hydrogen bomb testing at Bikini Atoll during the 1950s, Kwajalein continues to be the scene of "Star Wars" missile defense testing, with missiles fired from California being shot down over the atoll's massive lagoon. But like elsewhere in the Pacific, the islanders know that their economic future may lie in tourism, and scuba divers are slowly beginning to trickle into Bikini to dive its nuked shipwrecks.”

Peacekeepers, blah;
http://www.pacificislands.cc/pm42001/pmdefault.php?urlarticleid=0021


Yeh, I know I can only prove that Star Wars is being TESTED.
The reality is it reaches from below the Earth to above the skies - already!

Actually, I've worked on that program and the missiles launched are for the NMD - National Missile Defense program. This is no secret. They are shooting the interceptors from Vandenberg in Ca.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

As for the Patriot III, they do show the system here

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/patriot/

I noticed that unlike Gulf I they never let us see them.

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

NMD/Star Wars (Same "Umbrella")

My Uncle (Officer in the Australian Army), instructed the American’s how to “work” their Patriot systems in the First Gulf War. By all accounts, the system was a complete failure (hitting only one or two Scuds, the entire conflict).

The Patriot system (even later generations) is obsolete. They have been working on far more advanced systems than that.

If you used to work on Missile systems, Ivan Seeking, I would have thought you would have been forbidden from speaking about such activities under the NSA. I speak about such things, because I don’t care…
What systems did you work on?

Also, NMD – Star Wars, we can quibble over names, but they are under the same “umbrella”…
From;
http://www.anti-bases.org/nmd/armed_wing_of_globalisation.htm
"September 11 gave a huge boost to the United States plans to move full-speed ahead on National Missile Defence (NMD) or ‘Star Wars’."

See Ivan Seeking and Russ?
NMD and STAR WARS are the SAME!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Even though I agree that we have secret programs, in relative terms I don't see anything secret about the NMD. The effort is in fact a very public one. Also, I can speak freely about most of what I know. I certainly don't know any big secrets, and my silence, to the extent that it is required, is by contract, not by a security oath. I must admit though, based on what I know of the LASER systems being deployed, the NMD strikes me as a pork barrel filled with red herring.

I can say with absolute certainty that the systems that I worked on were missile systems. I should know; I programmed part of the launch control and tested part of the launch system.

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Brilliant Pebbles Systems and Star Wars Deployment

From;
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_security/space_weapons/page.cfm?pageID=1152
“Space-based Missile Defenses

The final case we consider is the ASAT capabilities of space-based systems being developed for ballistic missile defense. Unlike the systems discussed above, these systems are not intended for near-term deployment. Moreover, the US Missile Defense Agency (MDA) has reportedly decided not to emphasize space-based systems, although some funding for continued development is likely to continue. Two systems are currently being funded: the Space-Based Laser and kinetic energy "hit-to-kill" systems, which are the follow-ons to the "Brilliant Pebble" system of the early 1990s.”

From;
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_security/archive/page.cfm?pageID=588
“The Clinton administration has stated that it will not allow Russian objections to block NMD deployment and that it would withdraw from the ABM Treaty if needed.
The Pentagon has stated that in order to keep on schedule for a 2005 deployment date, the United States would need to begin site construction in Alaska in the spring of 2001 -- activities that it says would violate the ABM Treaty. If the United States is to give six months notice of its intent to withdraw -- as required by the treaty -- it would need to do so in the fall of 2000.”

Ask an Alaskan (yes, I know it's a "State" of the USA) what they think of that facility there...Its there already...

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Strangely enough, and I know this sounds really strange, but the minister at Tsu's church was an MIT Ph.D. in I think Chemical Engineering. The short of it is that he worked on Star Wars systems but broke down from the pressure. After a bout with alcoholism he went into the ministry. IIRC in the late seventies or early eighties he worked on a project for space based chemical LASER systems. At the time, that is when he broke down emotionally, platform stability thus targeting was a huge problem. Still, work was being done.

 

[Overdose]

anyone read the pdf?

 

[russ_watters]

What bothers me about that story is that typically, if it were really that new we wouldn't know about it. Since when do new systems like this bypass the classification process? My guess is that we have been using them for at least a decade.

Star Wars and her children have strategic deterrence value. That's why Star Wars was hyped more than it was worth. Stealth (at its inception) was mostly tactical and due to the type of weapon and technology, secrecy was a must to avoid having it countered. Similar to Star Wars, ABL and other projects are strategic, so you want people to know about them. And it helps that for their particular mission, there isn't really any counter.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Well, we probably agree on the basic point. Star Wars was not doable as proposed when proposed. Whether these projects are the children of Star Wars or just a continuation of the early work could be a matter of definition. As for deterrence, the counter argument is that these systems simply motivate the production and launch of more missiles. Given enough targets, any system will eventually be overwhelmed. So in this sense it would be best to keep secret an ability to repel any missile attack given few enough incomings. Of course, counter to that is the fact that the exact capabilities of such systems can remain highly classified though the technology is generally known to exist. IIRC, and I’m not sure about this, but I think we knew about the B1 bomber long before we knew it was stealthy to RADAR

 

[Ivan Seeking]

anyone read the pdf?

Still working on it. I keep sneaking away from work for quick adders...but I will respond soon.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

OKay, this is going to take some time to sort out. Some of this points made are interesting but I have real doubts about the logic of the conclusions. What's more, first and foremost in fact, how many astronauts do you thing Uncle Sam can keep quiet? Such a level of activity to me seems impossible to deny. Too many people would have to know. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[Overdose]

OKay, this is going to take some time to sort out. Some of this points made are interesting but I have real doubts about the logic of the conclusions. What's more, first and foremost in fact, how many astronauts do you thing Uncle Sam can keep quiet? Such a level of activity to me seems impossible to deny. Too many people would have to know. It just doesn't make sense.

it aint that hard man, i mean how many US astronauts have there been
ever, less than 100 id be willing to guess. So really we're not talking that many people to keep a secret. The people working on the ground who know about this stuff will probably be informed on a need to know basis, so you'll have a large group of people that each know a 'bit of the story' and probably only a small handfull that actually know the full picture.

This is really a case of plausible deniability anyway, it sounds too crazy (for some people) to believe, so that's half the job done in itself to my mind.

 

[DarkAnt]

“Smack dab in the middle of the Pacific lie two great chains of islands, Ralik and Ratak, composed of hundreds of islands, islets and atolls, including the world's largest, Kwajalein. In addition to the legacy of hydrogen bomb testing at Bikini Atoll during the 1950s, Kwajalein continues to be the scene of "Star Wars" missile defense testing, with missiles fired from California being shot down over the atoll's massive lagoon. But like elsewhere in the Pacific, the islanders know that their economic future may lie in tourism, and scuba divers are slowly beginning to trickle into Bikini to dive its nuked shipwrecks.”

I lived there up until this year

All they are doing up there is trying to get one missile to hit another missile. Its basically like trying to track a bullet, fire another bullet and make the bullets collide. When you've lived there for 7 years on a 1.5 square mile island not much gets by you. Its all tracking stuff out there. LOL, divers trickle in. We have the most active dive club in the world there.

"Greenpeace said it hopes to meet with Marshallese leaders and the Kwajalein missile range command and will hold open boat days so it can discuss its campaign to stop the Star Wars program."

Dude, everyone hates Greenpeace. They don't make any sense and they will protest everything. The Marshallese government hates them because they don't make any sense and the US army is the Marshallese lifeblood. If we were to pull out today an no one came into rent the islands then the marshalles would starve to death. The US army on the island hates them because they always attempt to sneak on the island take a picture holding up and sign and try to leave. They always get caught and they go to jail for a few days on another island. Even the french hate greenpeace. A french destroyer ran over the original greenpeace ship.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Hey DarkAnt, I'm confused. I didn't think anyone lives on Kwajalein. I had hoped to go there about two years ago but my customer lost the contract for the second phase of the latest launch installation. Anyway, we were told that we would have to boat over to the island [from another local island with facilities and living quarters] each morning.

Yes, everyone scheduled to go was taking or signed up for SCUBA lessons. It is supposed to be the best diving in the world, I'm told.

Edit: I double checked. We were to travel to Meck Island each day from Kwajalein.

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Aussie Radar Functional (STAR WARS IS REAL)

Hey, Ivan Seeking and Russ
You’re looking pretty stupid now, aren’t you?

As usual, I was right, you guys were wrong.

From;
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,10076690%255E12377,00.html
“AUSTRALIA and the US signed a pact this morning (AEST) to develop the controversial missile defence shield dubbed "Son of Star Wars".”

More;
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200407/s1148565.htm
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200407/s1149054.htm
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/07/07/1089000225395.html?oneclick=true

I’m so insane, that I get things right so regularly.
Conspiracy?
Nuh, mateys, REALITY!
Call it "Star Wars", "NMD", or "Son Of Star Wars".
Its the bloody same.

And Russ, we got that RADAR WORKING!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

What are you talking about? So Australia wants a missile defense shield. So what?

In fact this only indicates that you were wrong. It says they want it, not that they have it. You should have posted this as evidence of your lack of critical thought.

The way that you present this verges on a lie in my opinion.

 

[russ_watters]

The way that you present this verges on a lie in my opinion.

I might agree with you if I could ever figure out what he's talking about... I usually just ignore him.

edit-reread the thread: Oh, Hoagland. Hoagland is worse than a crackpot: he's a fraud. Crackpots at the very least believe themselves to be right. Hoagland knows he is wrong and lies.

Anyway, that's pretty funny - "Son of Star Wars"? I didn't know about that when I was talking about Star Wars' children. So that begs the question - does Star Wars have a daughter too?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I am currently working on the second cousin to star wars; once removed.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

it aint that hard man, i mean how many US astronauts have there been
ever, less than 100 id be willing to guess. So really we're not talking that many people to keep a secret. The people working on the ground who know about this stuff will probably be informed on a need to know basis, so you'll have a large group of people that each know a 'bit of the story' and probably only a small handfull that actually know the full picture.

This is really a case of plausible deniability anyway, it sounds too crazy (for some people) to believe, so that's half the job done in itself to my mind.

I think you seriously underestimate the difficulty in keeping a secret this big. Granted, I do think its possible that some people know more than they tell; I don't know who, and I don'ty know what secrets they may keep, but I do think its possible. It is another matter completely to say that something this big is happening in front of this many people. I will study the arguments when I have more time, say within another week or so, but frankly, to me it seems ludicrous to think that so much could be kept a secret.

 

[russ_watters]

You have a simple choice: you can either choose to obey the rules of the site or choose not to post here anymore. It really is up to you.

 

[Overdose]

Black budgets thread

Why can't i post on the blackbudgets thread? why is it closed

 

[russ_watters]

It is closed due to an aganst the terms of service post (since deleted), to stop it from spiraling out of control. Feel free to start a new thread on it (hey - here's one!).