US Science Funding Alert - Your Immediate Action Is Requested

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The proposed 2011 budget from the Republican-controlled House includes a significant 30% cut to the Department of Energy's Office of Science, which funds physical sciences and oversees U.S. National Laboratories. This reduction is expected to severely impact scientific programs and the workforce in these fields. Concerns are raised about the U.S. losing its attractiveness for scientists, particularly as foreign researchers are being lured back to their home countries with better opportunities. The discussion highlights a broader issue of prioritizing defense spending over scientific research, which could hinder long-term innovation and competitiveness. Immediate action is encouraged for U.S. citizens to contact their representatives regarding this critical funding issue.
  • #91
mheslep said:
Please, address the point: should the common citizen have any control over the revenues they are required to provide, even simply the amount there of, or should it be left up to the https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3144115&postcount=69"

What contempt? Ideology without restraint makes for a genuinely warped view, but while I don't think we've EVER agreed... I never thought you were out of touch with reality where your Ideology takes over. How unfortunate, and more so that you would see CONTEMPT in that. Maybe you expect what you offer. Beyond that, would you say that the staff of PF are, "common citizens" when it comes to areas of their expertise?

I think he made a rather compelling list of essential items and processes that underly the argument we're all having RIGHT NOW. AFAICT, your way is to follow your ideology into a pit while other nations take even more slack... THEN opine that the USA is falling behind. That is a political strategy, not one for genuine discussion.

@Evo: That's what I thought this was about to begin with: here's the issue as ZapperZ sees it, and here's what you can do if you agree.
 
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  • #92
DanP said:
Not guidance, counsel only. If you want to guide the process, join a political party and run for office.

Or manipulate that process with money, media, and anything else you can legally do. I see nothing here proposed outside of political norms.
 
  • #93
i can see a lack of funding generating a spark of creativity. maybe someone will dig that old dusty piece of equipment out of the basement and learn to use it in a new way.
 
  • #94
Proton Soup said:
i can see a lack of funding generating a spark of creativity. maybe someone will dig that old dusty piece of equipment out of the basement and learn to use it in a new way.

I admire your ability to find the silver lining... you could be right. Still, to me that seems like taking bad odds betting on our future.
 
  • #95
Just what college students investing enormous amounts of money into their education want to hear - they may have no jobs when they graduate!
 
  • #96
pergradus said:
Just what college students investing enormous amounts of money into their education want to hear - they may have no jobs when they graduate!

I'm sorry, but if that's true, it would be about the 200th profession in the history of our country which may have originally been financially lucrative but is now riddled with over-competition or saddled with unwelcome, but necessary fees.

Those who figure out how to retire at age 45 don't do so by investing "enormous amounts of money into their education." They do it by seeing the handwriting on the wall, by surfing the waves (ahead of the waves), and by investing in educational opportunities (not the expensive ones) which give them a distinct and unique advantage most people don't possess.

Translated, that means that by the time curricula is offered in major universities, when it comes to rising to the top of that line of endeavor, the folks floating in the water are already 2/3 the way up the face of the wave, with the crest about to pass beneath them. Only the winners manage to correctly time the waves and ride them home. The rest fight for scraps in the backwash.

It's as much art as it is science. In fact, if science had anything to do with predicting economic cycles, what's the "next big thing," or riding various economic waves, they'd have done so long ago. Perhaps a few have, but if so, they're either simply not "sharing the wealth," or their "secrets," once leaked, enter the CAPM's "efficient market" hypothesis and because relatively worthless.

Folks, this fundamental truth isn't limited to science. It's been around since we figured out how to build a better, more comfortable cave from stone, stick, wood, grass, mud, etc. Some folks get it, many don't. I hope you all get it, as you're all good people. The one's that got ahead had four qualities:

1. They saw the wave.

2. They knew enough about the situation in which they were into recognize the rising crest of the wave.

3. They had both the guts, as well as the resources, to paddle into the wave so as to catch it.

4. They had the skill to ride it home.

Even if you're an Einstein, only one of a hundred Einsteins are "rescued" into a successful career and retirement.

If you're a sub-Einstein, you still have to go through steps 1 through 4.

If you're just an average scientist, work hard. Dedicate yourself for 20 to 30 years, and if you're lucky, you might wind up earning a pension between 1/3 and 2/3 of your base salary.

Alternatively, you could be smart. Ditch the old paradigm. Don't buy into the old "put yourself into hock for half the rest of your life" mentality. Instead, figure out what the next big thing is, position yourself to ride that wave before it crests, and do whatever it takes to ensure you know enough to ride the wave once it comes crashing down.

I know I'm speaking in metaphores. Those of you who "get it" know exactly what I'm talking about. Those who don't will have to wait for someone to write a book. Unfortunately, I'm not that guy, and by then, it'll be too late.

One genius who did write a book along these lines that's fairly void of time constriants is https://www.amazon.com/dp/158008270X/?tag=pfamazon01-20.

Evo said:
Writing to your political representatives, signing petitions that go to them, etc... is how the average citizen makes their elected representatives know what they want and why. Zz is encouraging people to contact their rep and explain why they feel the budget cuts are damaging. The politicians don't know didly about what they're voting on in many cases. That is why input from people that are affected is so important.

Evo, while for the life of me I can't figure out why you keep slamming closed one thread after another, I agree with you 100% about politicians not knowing about most issues brought to their attention.

Letter's to Congressmen largely get lost in the wash.

I like to prepare briefs, which, "briefly" explain the issues commensurate with both their and their constituent's interests, provide a few alternatives, as well as a recommended final suggestion.

I usually like to leave it as a "no-brainer" solution, but I've often found while conducting the research to support these briefs, I was the one off-base, that my ideals, or preconceived notions lead me in one direction while the facts lead me in the other. Thankfully, I have no ties to anyone, so I shuck the smuck, and send it out as is. Yes, it ruffles some feathers among those who do have ties or life-long experiences which tell them otherwise.

Whatever. Reality is. Grasp it, adapt, and move on with reality as it is. Or get mowed over by the tide of the flotsam and jetsom which simply feed on whatever is floating in the waves.
 
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  • #97
How is that relevant to the thread, I have no idea. For instance,
mugaliens said:
Those who figure out how to retire at age 45
passionate scientists do not ever want to retire.
 
  • #98
mugaliens said:
Alternatively, you could be smart. Ditch the old paradigm.
If all scientists decided to go after the smart money, the world would probably still be in the technological middle ages.
 
  • #99
Gokul43201 said:
If all scientists decided to go after the smart money, the world would probably still be in the technological middle ages.

Seriously... just look at the people who jumped on the "quantum mystic" bandwagon. I'm pretty sure that any of the QM people here could become a truly successful televangalist for almost anything. If you're willing to be completely unethical and soulless, you could talk circles around a <BLEEP> like Deepak Chopra, and still bring it back to the usual crystal-gripping "fun".

Or... you could just sell your skills to the highest bidder, criminal, extranational or otherwise.

Yeah... that's a bright future to build, but something tells me it ends with mushroom clouds.
 
  • #100
nismaratwork said:
Yeah... that's a bright future to build, but something tells me it ends with mushroom clouds.

Doesn't matter, I have tickets in the first row for the event . Ill get an awesome view :devil:
 
  • #101
DanP said:
Doesn't matter, I have tickets in the first row for the event . Ill get an awesome view :devil:

Moscow, DC, East/West Coast, or Mid-West? :wink:

Yep... it should be very exciting for a shake or two... then mostly dust and fire.
 
  • #102
FYI -

OAK RIDGE, Tenn., Feb. 9, 2011 — A BMI Corp. SmartTruck technology that could save 1.5 billion gallons of diesel fuel and $5 billion in fuel costs per year has hit the road in record time in part because of simulations performed on the nation's most powerful supercomputer at the Department of Energy's Oak Ridge National Laboratory.
While South Carolina-based BMI Corp. has just won an industry award from Heavy Duty

Trucking magazine, the real winners could be trucking companies and the environment. With installation of BMI's SmartTruck UnderTray System to improve the aerodynamics of 18-wheeler (Class 8) long-haul trucks, the typical big rig can achieve fuel savings of between 7 and 12 percent, easily meeting the new California Air Resources Board mandate that calls for a minimum mileage improvement of 5 percent.
. . . .
http://www.ornl.gov/info/press_releases/get_press_release.cfm?ReleaseNumber=mr20110209-00

http://www.sc.doe.gov/ascr/
 
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  • #103
I wouldn't be surprised if most of the people that have been calling for the gutting, or even disbandment of the DOE don't have any real idea of what kind of work the DOE does (i.e., the kind of research projects it funds). I would be less surprised if a large number of them think the DOE works primarily on alternative energy research!
 
  • #104
Science will bring about more job loss & unemployment..it's a risk that has to be weighed
 
  • #105
Gokul43201 said:
I wouldn't be surprised if most of the people that have been calling for the gutting, or even disbandment of the DOE don't have any real idea of what kind of work the DOE does. I would be less surprised if a large number of them think the DOE works primarily on alternative energy research!

Gokul, you're not going to want to hear this, but most people won't know what the DOE IS. I'm not being trite; this is a fallacy I see among intelligent people who surround themselves with other intelligent people; the, "Every schoolboy should know this!" fallacy. It's not that you're wrong in principle, but in practice people are FAR more ignorant and apathetic than you're giving them credit for. Sad, but very true.
 
  • #106
elfboy said:
Science will bring about more job loss & unemployment..it's a risk that has to be weighed

How do you figure that... and do you have a shred of evidence?
 
  • #107
nismaratwork said:
How do you figure that... and do you have a shred of evidence?

wikipedia summarizes it pretty well

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobless_recovery

technology creates so called structural unemployment, and it's always been assumed that less skilled , displaced workers can go to school and aquaire the skills needed to enter a more technical workplace, but nowadays that is not even good enough.
 
  • #108
elfboy said:
wikipedia summarizes it pretty well

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobless_recovery

technology creates so called structural unemployment, and it's always been assumed that less skilled , displaced workers can go to school and aquaire the skills needed to enter a more technical workplace, but nowadays that is not even good enough.

I think generalizing from automation to "science" in general is more of a leap than you've provided the grounding for. Beyond that, you're looking at one element of the job situation, and ignoring that the world continues without us. I'm not seeing anything in that wikipedia article to justify the blanket notion that science kills jobs.

I'd say science promotes change, and in the midst of change people's jobs become defunct. The alternative is to be a Luddite, or cede the technology to other nations and STILL lose jobs.
 
  • #109
elfboy said:
Science will bring about more job loss & unemployment..it's a risk that has to be weighed

This should read; The bureaucratization of science will bring about more job loss & unemployment.

Recently Democrat Obama dumped an astronomical motherload of "stimulus money" on the DoE ( Democrat Jimmy Carter's origin ), as well as on other of their bureaucratic comrades. The consequences of this will be suffered for many generations.
 
  • #110
Yeah, the suffering has already begun. See post #102, for instance.
 
  • #111
Helios said:
This should read; The bureaucratization of science will bring about more job loss & unemployment.

Recently Democrat Obama dumped an astronomical motherload of "stimulus money" on the DoE ( Democrat Jimmy Carter's origin ), as well as on other of their bureaucratic comrades. The consequences of this will be suffered for many generations.
Bolding mine. Please post the research that proves this. Do not post again until you post the mainstream peer reviewed studies that back you up.
 
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  • #112
Evo.

Obama's monetary policy ( stimulus money dumping ) makes it seem that more capital exists for production than actually exists. There are cases of economic growth, but this is short-term and fortuitous. Malinvestment is what actually occurs. Investment plans will seem feasible in a Obama boom, but will be in error due to a lack of real capital that actual entrepreneurs would have invested, based on a real anticipation of the future.

You and others are getting touchy and seem to have a vested interest in Obama's stimulus, so I'm outta here.
 
  • #113
Helios said:
Evo.

Obama's monetary policy ( stimulus money dumping ) makes it seem that more capital exists for production than actually exists. There are cases of economic growth, but this is short-term and fortuitous. Malinvestment is what actually occurs. Investment plans will seem feasible in a Obama boom, but will be in error due to a lack of real capital that actual entrepreneurs would have invested, based on a real anticipation of the future.

You and others are getting touchy and seem to have a vested interest in Obama's stimulus, so I'm outta here.
Obama has nothing to do with this. You've made claims that you haven't backed up. Plus this thread is about future budget cuts. I agree, based on your posts in this thread, that it's best you opt out.
 
  • #114
Helios said:
Recently Democrat Obama dumped an astronomical motherload of "stimulus money" on the DoE ( Democrat Jimmy Carter's origin ), as well as on other of their bureaucratic comrades. The consequences of this will be suffered for many generations.
This statement is misleading. The increase in funding of DOE is not astronomical.

In 1977, DOE was formed from a consolidation of existing organizations. A precursor, ERDA was formed under the Ford administration.

THE ENERGY RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT ADMINISTRATION (ERDA)
Following the "Energy Crisis" of the early 1970s, the Nation recognized the need to expand research and development activities involving alternative forms of energy, and to reorganize nuclear energy regulation. In 1975, the AEC was replaced by the Energy Research and Development Administration (ERDA), which was created to focus the federal government's energy research development activities into one unified agency, which was also to include AEC's nuclear energy defense activities. The Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) was also created out of remaining parts of the AEC's mission. Chicago Operations Office became part of the new ERDA incorporating AEC's R&D functions, including basic research and nuclear power development, and an assortment of other federal agencies' fossil, solar and alternate energy research, development and demonstration activities.
http://www.ch.doe.gov/html/site_info/energy_research.htm

THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY (DOE)
In 1977 the Administration and Congress acted to further consolidate federal energy policy, R&D, and nuclear energy defense functions. ERDA was integrated with the Federal Energy Administration and other federal energy functions to create a Cabinet-level U.S. Department of Energy. The governmental elements brought together to form DOE included the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission; the Economic Regulatory Administration; the automotive research and development sections of the Environmental Protection Agency; Solar Research and Development from the National Science Foundation; and Fossil Energy and Development from the Department of the Interior's Office of Coal Research, as well as several Power Administrations.
http://www.ch.doe.gov/html/site_info/department_energy.htm

The DOE does basic research and development that industry does not do or does not want to do because R&D are considered overhead. Industry prefers that DOE fund the research based on personal experience. One energy related company used to have about 5000 employees in its reasearch center. Now it has a few hundred. The same company lost more than $5 billion during the 1980s speculating in real estate. It sold off divisions it did not consider profitable. Those divisions were profitable and become viable businesses on their own. Stockholders lost billions, but management did well considering how poorly they did.
 
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  • #115
When I mentioned earlier that there are already indications that the US is in decline, several people didn't believe me. Well then, here's another article stating the same thing.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2056610,00.html?hpt=T2

He made a very important point, that the present wealth and economic power in the US were due to investments made a long time ago. These are investments in areas that are being severely cut in the current budget climate.

Zz.
 

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