Using elastic equations to calculate height

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Homework Help Overview

The problem involves a bullet fired from a gun that becomes embedded in a wooden block, which then swings as a pendulum. Participants are discussing the application of momentum conservation and kinetic energy principles to determine the height the block will reach after the collision.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants explore the conservation of momentum in inelastic collisions and question the assumptions about the bullet's mass and speed. There are discussions about calculating the final velocity after the collision and the subsequent kinetic energy to potential energy conversion to find the height.

Discussion Status

Several participants have provided guidance on the correct equations to use for inelastic collisions and the relationship between kinetic and potential energy. There is an acknowledgment of the unrealistic nature of the numbers involved, and some participants express confusion about the calculations and the physical implications of the results.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the problem's parameters may not reflect realistic scenarios, with discussions highlighting the high kinetic energy values and the implications of such a bullet's speed and mass. There is also mention of the teacher's role in providing the problem and equations, which has contributed to the confusion regarding the correct approach.

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Homework Statement


2. A 0.30 kg bullet is fired from a gun with a velocity of 410 m/s. The bullet then becomes embedded into a piece of wood with mass 5.5 kg hanging as a pendulum at rest. To what height will the piece of wood swing?
m1=.3kg
v1=410m/s
m2=5.5kg
v2=0

Homework Equations


m1v1 + m2v2 = m1(v1’+ v2’)


The Attempt at a Solution


i plugged in the variables (.3*410+5.5*0=.3(v1'+v2')), but it comes out to 410. I know that in a perfect inelastic equation all energy should transfer, but how can i use this to calculate the height the pendulum will reach?
 
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Do you know what happens to momentum when the bullet collides with the block?
In an in elastic collision kinetic energy is not conserved.
 
Last edited:
maxalador said:
I know that in a perfect inelastic equation all energy should transfer,
No, that's for a perfectly elastic collision. You have successfully calculated the velocity immediately after the collision. From that point, you can take work as being conserved. How much work energy does the system have?
 
haruspex said:
No, that's for a perfectly elastic collision. You have successfully calculated the velocity immediately after the collision. From that point, you can take work as being conserved. How much work energy does the system have?

I do not think that the velocity after the collision has been calculated!
It should be approx 20 m/ s
There is also something unrealistic about these numbers...a bullet of 300 g traveling at 410m/ s ??

It is a cannon!
 
Last edited:
haruspex said:
No, that's for a perfectly elastic collision. You have successfully calculated the velocity immediately after the collision. From that point, you can take work as being conserved. How much work energy does the system have?

So I use K=1/2mv^2, when m=5.8 (mass of bullet + mass of wooden block) and v=20.8 (final velocity)?
 
Last edited:
maxalador said:
So I use K=1/2mv^2, when m=5.8 (mass of bullet + mass of wooden block) and v=20.8 (final velocity)?

That is the correct way to calculate the KE after the collision.
The numbers do not look realistic to me !
Have you checked that the bullet is indeed 300 g and the speed 410 m/ s ( much greater than the speed of sound!)
 
technician said:
That is the correct way to calculate the KE after the collision.
The numbers do not look realistic to me !
Have you checked that the bullet is indeed 300 g and the speed 410 m/ s ( much greater than the speed of sound!)

I did check and they are the correct numbers. How would I solve for final velocity? I do not get the correct answer (21), and I don't understand why.
 
Which is the correct equation for inelastic collisions?
m1*v1+m2*v2=m1(v1'+v2')
or
m1*v1+m2*v2=(m1+m2)vf
 
For the collision
m1 x v1 = (m1+m2) x v2
This gives v2 = 21.2 m/s

Where did the question come from? The numbers relate more to a cannon than a rifle/handgun.
You will find that you get a totally unrealistic final answer for the final height of the block!

PS...you were not asked to calculate it but your numbers have a 'bullet' with kinetic energy of just over 25000 (25kJ !) Joules
 
Last edited:
  • #10
technician said:
For the collision
m1 x v1 = (m1+m2) x v2
This gives v2 = 21.2 m/s

Where did the question come from? The numbers relate more to a cannon than a rifle/handgun.
You will find that you get a totally unrealistic final answer for the final height of the block!

the question was made by my teacher. He also gave me the other equation i posted which is why i could not solve for the velocity.

also, I noticed the kinetic energy but he makes a lot of problems with numbers similar to these so i thought nothing of it.
 
  • #11
so after solving for the final velocity what equation do I use to solve for the height?
 
  • #12
maxalador said:
the question was made by my teacher. He also gave me the other equation i posted which is why i could not solve for the velocity.

Carry on with it...you will learn the correct method and equations but it is a great pity that the answer you get will be...ridiculous!...sorry about that.
Make certain you understand the physics and don't worry too much about the reality.
If the mass of the bullet was 0.03kg it would be more realistic.

PS. KE to PE ?
 
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  • #13
I see Ke=Pe so when you solve you will be left with height. Thanks for this i did not understand it when my teacher taught this
 
  • #14
maxalador said:
I see Ke=Pe so when you solve you will be left with height. Thanks for this i did not understand it when my teacher taught this

Work through it and post your answer, I will tell you what I get and then we can laugh about it!
 
  • #15
KE= 1/2mv^2
KE=1/2*5.8*21.2^2
KE=1303
KE=PE
1303=mgh
1303=5.8*9.8*h
h=22.9
 
  • #16
That is correct, the calculation shows that the block will swing to a height of 23m...this is about 7 stories !
Do you see how unrealistic the question is.
Here are some more interesting facts that come from the numbers in your question
1) a bullet fired vertically upwards with a velocity of 410m/s would reach a height of 8400m (25,000 feet !)
2) The KE of the bullet is 25,215J, the KE of the block is 1,280J. This means that 23,935 Joules of energy were deposited in the block...it would be blown to smithereens.
It will be a good exercise for you to confirm these numbers.

If the mass of the bullet had been 0.03kg could you redo the calculations and see what you would get... much more believable.
anyway...you got the correct (ridiculous) answer.
 
  • #17
I see what you mean.

Thanks for all your help
 

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