Van Der Wal's force doesn't add up

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of Van der Waals forces and their relationship with atomic size and electron distribution, particularly as one moves down a group in the periodic table. Participants explore the implications of atomic radius on the strength of these forces, considering both theoretical explanations and potential contradictions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant explains that as atomic radius increases down a group, boiling points rise due to stronger Van der Waals forces attributed to larger temporary dipoles.
  • Another participant argues that more electrons lead to more electron imbalances, suggesting that London dispersion forces, a component of Van der Waals forces, would be stronger with increased atomic size.
  • A different viewpoint questions whether the increase in nuclear radius might counteract Van der Waals forces, positing that larger atomic radii could lead to a spreading out of electrons, potentially diminishing the overall dipole effect.
  • One participant asserts that larger atoms have greater polarizability and greater fluctuations in dipole moments, which would enhance Van der Waals interactions, while clarifying that atomic size is not related to nuclear radius.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between atomic size and Van der Waals forces, with no consensus reached on how these factors interact. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of atomic radius on the strength of these forces.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight various assumptions about electron distribution and dipole formation, but these assumptions are not fully explored or agreed upon. The relationship between atomic size and nuclear radius is also noted as a point of clarification.

satisverborum20
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I was given the explanation that as you go down a group in the periodic table, the boiling points of the elements increase as the radius of the atom increase. There are more electrons and therefore the greater distance they can move in which the temporary dipoles can cover and so the Van Der wal's force is bigger.

And here comes the question. I thought that Van der wal's force is a temporary imbalance of electrons in an atom in which one end is slightly negative than the other. Therefore if you have larger atomic radius then wouldn't there be smaller van der wal's force as they electrons are more likely to spread out over a bigger area creating lots of little dipoles which are insignificant to the overall charge of the atom or cancel each other out instead of creating a big temporary dipoles by being concentrated on one side.

Can anyone help me out or is there something I'm missing?
 
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More electrons means that there will be more electron imbalances. Therefore, the London dispersion forces will be stronger.
 
But if the nuclear radius increase wouldn't this counteract the van der wal's forces because with bigger radius there would be less chance of all the electrons causing an imbalance as they would be more likely to "spread out".
 
Bigger atom => greater polarizability => greater dipole moment fluctuations => greater van der waals interactions.

For a rule of thumb relationship between atomic size and polarizability, see Griffiths' Introduction to Electrodynamics.

PS: Note that the atomic size is not correlated to the nuclear radius in any way.
 

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