Variation of perfect fluid and Lie derivative

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation and interpretation of the energy-momentum tensor for a perfect fluid using the Lagrangian formulation as presented in Hawking-Ellis's book. Participants explore the relationship between variations of vector fields and the Lie derivative, questioning the correctness of specific equations and definitions related to these concepts.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation, Conceptual clarification, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the equation $$\Delta W = L_{K}W$$, suggesting that the components of $$\Delta W$$ and $$L_{K}W$$ do not match under certain interpretations.
  • Another participant interprets $$\Delta W$$ as the variation vector of the vector field $$W$$ in the direction of $$K_\alpha$$, proposing that the equation is more a summary of the setup rather than a derived conclusion.
  • A subsequent participant notes that the equation $$\Delta W = L_{K}W$$ can be viewed as a definition rather than a derivation, raising questions about the use of bundles in the context of the discussion.
  • One participant emphasizes that the equation is a matter of viewpoint regarding vector fields and bundles, suggesting that it reflects variation calculus expressed in terms of vector fields.
  • Another participant seeks clarification on the apparent contradiction between the left-hand side and right-hand side components of the equation, asking for an explanation without referencing bundles.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing interpretations of the equation $$\Delta W = L_{K}W$$, with no consensus reached on its implications or correctness. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the relationship between the components of the left-hand side and right-hand side of the equation.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the discussion involves complex definitions and interpretations that may depend on the specific mathematical framework used, such as the use of bundles versus a more traditional manifold approach.

TAKEDA Hiroki
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In Hawking-Ellis Book(1973) "The large scale structure of space-time" p69-p70, they derive the energy-momentum tensor for perfect fluid by lagrangian formulation. They imply if ##D## is a sufficiently small compact region, one can represent a congruence by a diffeomorphism ##\gamma: [a,b]\times N\rightarrow D## where ##[a,b]## is some closed interval of ##R^1## and ##N## is some 3-dimensional manifold with boundary. The tangent vector of ##\gamma## is ##W=(\partial/\partial t)_{\gamma}##. The Lagrangian is taken to be $$L=-\rho(1+\epsilon)$$ and the action ##I## is required to be stationary when the flow lines are varied and ##\rho## is adjusted to keep ##j^a## conserved where ##\rho## is a function and ##\epsilon## is the elastic potential as a function of ##\rho##. A variation of the flow lines is a differentiable map ##\alpha: (-\delta, \delta)\times[a, b]\times N\rightarrow D## such that $$\alpha(0, [a,b],N)=\gamma([a,b],N).$$ They say "Then it follows that $$\Delta W=L_{K}W$$ where the vector ##K## is ##K=(\partial/\partial u)_{\alpha}##."
I'm curious this equation is correct. I guess ##\Delta W## means its components is ##(\partial W^i/\partial u)|_{u=0}## in their book. However r.h.s components are calculated as follows.$$(L_{K}W)^i=\frac{\partial W^i}{\partial x^j}K^j-\frac{\partial K^i}{\partial x^j}W^j=\frac{\partial W^i}{\partial u}-\frac{\partial K^i}{\partial t}$$ So I wonder $$(\Delta W)^i=\frac{\partial W^i}{\partial u}\neq (L_{K}W)^i=\frac{\partial W^i}{\partial u}-\frac{\partial K^i}{\partial t}.$$ ##(\partial K^i/\partial t)=0?## Will you tell me where I am wrong?
This pdf file is Eur. Phys. J. H paper by S. Hawking. See page 19. But I'm sorry my notation is little different.
https://epjti.epj.org/images/stories/news/2014/10.1140--epjh--e2014-50013-6.pdf
 
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I read it as follows:

## \Delta W \stackrel{p.17}{=} \pi (\left. \frac{\partial}{\partial u} \alpha \right|_{u=0}) \stackrel{p.19}{=} \pi(\left. K_\alpha \right|_{u=0}) ## is the variation vector of the vector field ##W## in direction of ##K_\alpha##, the variation of flow lines in direction ##K_\alpha= \left( \frac{\partial}{\partial u} \right)_\alpha ## at the point ##u=0##. Isn't this exactly the definition of the Lie derivative of ##W## along ##K## at this point? So ##"##It then follows that ##\Delta W = L_KW\,"## is more a summary of the specific set-up of the example rather than a conclusion form previous statements. The conclusions come next (p.20).
 
Thank you for your reply.

I see.. This equation is a definition rather than a derivation.
But I have a question. This paper is written more precisely by using bundle than Hawking-Ellis Book(1973). In the book, they denote ##\partial\Psi_{(i)}(u,r)/\partial u)|_{u=0}## by ##\Delta\Psi_{(i)}## where ##\Psi_{(i)}(u,r)## is a one-parameter family of fields, ##u## is a variation parameter and ##r## is a point of spacetime. The concept of bundle is not used. In this case, can I also understand ##\Delta W=L_{K}W## is exactly the definition of the Lie derivative of ##W## along ##K## at the point? And can both (r.h.s.) and (l.h.s.) components be ##(\partial W^i/\partial u)##? Sorry I'm confused.
 
I'm not sure I understand you correctly. As soon as you have a (tangent) vector field all over the manifold, you also have vector bundles or even tensor bundles. It is a matter of viewpoint and language, not of a discrepancy regarding the manifold. To me the equation ##\Delta W = L_KW## is what variation calculus is all about, only expressed in terms of certain vector fields, ##W## and ##K##.

The "missing" direction ##K## in ##\Delta W## is hidden in the definition of the variation vector (field) ##\Delta## of the vector field ## W## (p.17) which uses the direction ##\left. K\right|_{u=0} = \left. \left( \left( \frac{\partial}{\partial u}\right) \circ \alpha \right) \right|_{u=0}## and the variation ##\alpha \, : \, \alpha(0,t,q)=\gamma(t,q) ## for ##t \in [a,b]\; , \;q \in N\,## by defining ##\Delta W = \pi \left( \left. \frac{\partial}{\partial u}\right|_{u=0} \gamma(t,q) \right)##.

Perhaps
https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/pantheon-derivatives-part-ii/
https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/pantheon-derivatives-part-iv/
can help you to clarify the picture. It is only an overview and not especially about variations but is has some examples.
 
Thanks a lot.
So Why is the (l.h.s) component ##(\partial W^i/\partial u)##, though (r.h.s.) component is ##(\partial W^i/\partial u)-(\partial K^i/\partial t)## ?? I want you to explain without using the projection ##\pi## because I'm not familiar with the bundle. In the following calculation, this relation ##(\partial W^i/\partial u)=(L_{K}W)^i=W^i{}_{;j}K^j-K^i{}_{;j}W^j## is used. But ##(L_{K}W)^i## is also expressed as ##(L_{K}W)^i=(\partial W^i/\partial u)-(\partial K^i/\partial t)##. Is this a contradiction?
 
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