Vector space (no topology) basis

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of a basis for vector spaces, particularly focusing on the vector space of all sequences of field elements. Participants explore the implications of finite versus infinite linear combinations in defining a basis, and whether a different definition is necessary to encompass all sequences within the space.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that the standard definition of a basis requires all vectors to be expressible as finite linear combinations of basis elements.
  • Others argue that the sequences defined as having one non-zero component cannot form a Hamel basis for the space of all sequences, as not all elements can be represented this way.
  • A distinction is made between Hamel bases (finite linear combinations) and Schauder bases (infinite combinations), with some noting that the latter is not applicable without topology.
  • One participant highlights the challenge of explicitly describing a Hamel basis for the direct product of a countable number of copies of a field, suggesting that while existence is guaranteed by Zorn's lemma, no explicit basis is known.
  • Another participant mentions that every vector space has a basis assuming the axiom of choice, but emphasizes that the basis cannot be explicitly constructed.
  • Some participants express confusion regarding the implications of countability and linear independence, questioning whether a countable set of vectors with one non-zero component could serve as a basis.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the definition of a basis in this context, with multiple competing views regarding the nature of bases and the implications of finite versus infinite linear combinations. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific characteristics of a basis for the vector space in question.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in the definitions and assumptions regarding bases, particularly in relation to the distinction between finite and infinite combinations. There is also mention of the need for clarity on the axioms of vector spaces and the implications of linear independence.

  • #31
It is a basis in the "usual sense" if the space contains only those sequences for which almost all coordinates are zero. That's because you are allowed finite combinations.

As for Schauder bases - the sequences you describe give a Schauder basis in any ##\ell _p##, where ##1\leq p<\infty##.

Important thing to note: a Schauder basis is not necessarily a basis.
 
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  • #32
So far as my understanding: (Hamel) basis allows only a finite linear combination - no topology. Schauder basis allows countable combinations with limiting such. as ##l_p,\ 1\le p\lt \infty##. My question: can a concept of basis (any name) be used in ##l_\infty##?
 
  • #33
My question: can a concept of basis (any name) be used in ##\ell _\infty ##?
Standard math accepts the axiom of choice. Yes, the space does have a basis, but it's difficult to describe explicitly and it is uncountable.
 
  • #34
What about the vector space using integers mod2 as the field?
 
  • #35
Which vector space do you have in mind, exactly? As long as it's non-zero, there is a basis.
 
  • #36
nuuskur said:
Which vector space do you have in mind, exactly? As long as it's non-zero, there is a basis.
Vector space elements are infinite sequences of zeros and ones, with arithmetic mod 2 for the scalars..
 
  • #37
mathwonk said:
but i do not know at all how to write down a vector basis for the direct product ("hamel basis"), and presumably no one else does either. so this is a nice explicit example of something whose existence is guaranteed by zorn's lemma, but apparently no one has ever seen or explicitly described one.
yes I am pretty sure there's a theorem saying existence of hamel basis is equivalent to AC so if someone managed to write down explicit basis then that can only mean trouble...

this is like the issue with ultrafilters and well ordering of reals and many other things.
 
  • #38
mathman said:
Vector space elements are infinite sequences of zeros and ones, with arithmetic mod 2 for the scalars..
Then your scalars are essentially just 0 and 1 then, I guess.
 
  • #39
WWGD said:
Then your scalars are essentially just 0 and 1 then, I guess.
Yes. Scalar arithmetic is mod 2.
 

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