Vector Valued Forms: Rank (n,p) Tensors

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of vector-valued forms and their relationship to rank (n,p) tensors, particularly focusing on their properties, operations such as the wedge product, and the implications of index notation in understanding these mathematical objects.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that a vector-valued p-form is equivalent to a rank (n,p) tensor that is totally anti-symmetric in the lower indices.
  • Others argue that vector-valued forms can take values in various vector spaces, not limited to T_xM, citing examples like gauge connections.
  • A participant mentions that vector-valued p-forms are elements of a vector bundle, specifically \Omega^p(M)\otimes C^{\infty}(E).
  • There is a question about the meaning of the wedge product between a (n,0) valued p-form and a k-form, with a suggestion that it results in a (n,p+k) tensor that is fully anti-symmetrized in the lower indices.
  • One participant clarifies that the exterior derivative of a vector-valued form does not require parallel transport, although a covariant exterior derivative does involve a connection form.
  • Concerns are raised about index suppression and its impact on understanding the distinction between different forms, with suggestions that clear verbal descriptions can aid comprehension.
  • Another participant defends the use of simpler notation over index notation, arguing that it enhances clarity and understanding of geometric meanings.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on some foundational aspects of vector-valued forms and their operations, but there are differing opinions on the implications of index notation and the necessity of parallel transport for defining exterior derivatives. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best practices for notation and clarity in this context.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential misunderstandings arising from index suppression and the varying interpretations of notation, which may affect clarity in communication of concepts.

Matterwave
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Hi, I'm just wondering, a vector valued (or (n,0) tensor valued) p form is the same as a rank (n,p) tensor which is totally anti-symmetric bottom indices right? Is there a difference?

A (n,m) valued p form is a (n,m+p) tensor which is anti-symmetric in the lower p indices?
 
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Yes, basically.

However, vector-valued forms can also take values in vector spaces other than T_xM. For example, a gauge connection is a 1-form that takes values in the Lie algebra of some Lie group.
 
More generally, vector valued p-forms take value in a vector bundle. I.e. they are elements of \Omega^p(M)\otimes C^{\infty}(E)
 
Ok, sounds good to me.

Now, what does it mean to take the wedge product of two of them together? For simplicity, what does it mean to take the wedge product of a (n,0) valued p form and a k-form? It's a (n,p+k) tensor that's fully anti-symmetrized in the lower p+k indices?

To take the exterior derivative of a vector-valued form, do we have to use parallel transport? In other words, we must first define a connection before we can define such an exterior derivative?
 
Matterwave said:
Now, what does it mean to take the wedge product of two of them together? For simplicity, what does it mean to take the wedge product of a (n,0) valued p form and a k-form? It's a (n,p+k) tensor that's fully anti-symmetrized in the lower p+k indices?

Yes. I tend to think of wedge products more formally, so I would say it "means" that you stick the forms next to each other with a wedge symbol in between. E.g., say \xi^a, \zeta^a are vector-valued 1-forms, then

\xi^a \wedge \zeta^b = - \zeta^b \wedge \xi^a
is a (2,0)-tensor-valued 2-form.

To take the exterior derivative of a vector-valued form, do we have to use parallel transport? In other words, we must first define a connection before we can define such an exterior derivative?

No, the exterior derivative is still defined the same way. So if

\xi^a = \xi^a{}_i \, dx^i
then

d \xi^a = \frac{\partial}{\partial x^j} \xi^a{}_i \, dx^j \wedge dx^i.
However, there is another object called a "covariant exterior derivative", which can be defined as

D \xi^a = d \xi^a + \omega^a{}_b \wedge \xi^b
for some matrix-valued connection form \omega^a{}_b. If the vector bundle is the tangent bundle, then \omega^a{}_b can be related to the Christoffel symbols. If the vector bundle is some principal G-bundle, then \omega^a{}_b can be related to the gauge connection.
 
I see...so there seems to be some index suppression going on here. If we suppress the "form" indices, how are we supposed to know if an object is a vector valued 1 form or 2 form or 3 form etc? I think the index suppression is messing with me when I try to read some of the material in this subject.
 
Matterwave said:
I see...so there seems to be some index suppression going on here. If we suppress the "form" indices, how are we supposed to know if an object is a vector valued 1 form or 2 form or 3 form etc?

You just use some words to say what it is, like I did in my post above. Even if you chose to use index notation, you would still end up using the same words, because the purpose of writing things down is to clearly explain them to someone else.

I think the index suppression is messing with me when I try to read some of the material in this subject.

I think the notation is much cleaner this way. For example, if I want to take the covariant exterior derivative of a matrix-valued 2-form, the formula

D R^a{}_b = d R^a{}_b + \omega^a{}_c \wedge R^c{}_b - R^a{}_c \wedge \omega^c{}_b
is much easier to understand than

(D R^a{}_b)_{\mu\nu\rho} = 3 \partial_{[\mu} R^a{}_{|b|\nu\rho]} + 3 \omega^a{}_{c[\mu} R^c{}_{|b|\nu\rho]} - 3 \omega^c{}_{b[\mu} R^a{}_{|c|\nu\rho]}
because I don't have to stare at the formula and process all the tiny symbols to figure out what is being contracted with what, and what it means geometrically.

The nice thing about differential forms, wedge products, and exterior derivatives is that they have simple geometric meanings, and you can visualize what is happening by looking at the equations. They also have simple rules of manipulation that make it easy to solve equations. The index notation, on the other hand, is more like a description of an algorithm for plugging things into a computer.

Also, you may find reasons to use indices that have nothing to do with components relative to some basis. For example, what if I have a collection of vector-valued forms, labelled by an index I? The more "decoration" each quantity has to carry around, the more difficult it is to read formulas.
 
Yea, I think the simpler notation will be much more useful when I become acquainted with the subject. It's just from first glance, it's hard for me to "get" exactly what each quantity is.
 

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