Virtual Particles and Energy Scales

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of virtual particles, specifically in the context of electron-positron scattering processes involving virtual Z bosons and photons. Participants explore the implications of the uncertainty principle on energy scales, the role of virtual particles in calculations, and how contributions from different processes are accounted for in theoretical frameworks.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that virtual Z bosons can contribute to processes even when the center of mass (CM) energy is less than the mass of the Z, due to the uncertainty principle allowing for temporary energy fluctuations.
  • Others argue that virtual particles are merely calculational tools and do not correspond to real physical entities in a collision, emphasizing that one cannot definitively assign a specific particle type to a given interaction.
  • A participant questions whether contributions from Feynman diagrams involving the Z boson should still be included in calculations when the CM energy is below the Z mass, suggesting that these contributions might be smaller but still relevant.
  • It is noted that the contribution of the Z boson becomes significant at energies around 70 GeV, with a general trend indicating that contributions decrease as the energy moves further away from this threshold.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of virtual particles and their contributions to scattering processes. There is no consensus on whether contributions from diagrams involving the Z boson should be included when the CM energy is below the Z mass, as some assert relevance while others emphasize diminishing significance.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexity of virtual particle contributions and the dependence on energy scales, with unresolved questions regarding the treatment of these contributions in theoretical calculations.

jeffbarrington
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Just a basic question which I will ask through an example:

An electron and positron can scatter by annihilating to form either a virtual Z or virtual photon, either of which can then pair produce to give an electron/positron pair (amongst an infinity of other processes whose contributions need to be summed up, of course). Firstly, am I correct in thinking the process involving the virtual Z can still occur when the CM energy is less than the mass of the Z (uncertainty principle allows energy to be 'borrowed' for a sufficiently short time)? Second, if this is the case, then if the CM energy is indeed much less than the mass of the Z, I can take this to mean that the contribution of the process involving the Z is negligible (which I think can be understood from the 1/(P^2-m^2c^2) factor in the propagator)?

Thanks in advance, really new to a lot of these concepts so my understanding is a bit of a jumble at the moment.
 
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jeffbarrington said:
An electron and positron can scatter by annihilating to form either a virtual Z or virtual photon, either of which can then pair produce to give an electron/positron pair (amongst an infinity of other processes whose contributions need to be summed up, of course). Firstly, am I correct in thinking the process involving the virtual Z can still occur when the CM energy is less than the mass of the Z (uncertainty principle allows energy to be 'borrowed' for a sufficiently short time)?
It is not "either/or". You cannot look at a given collision and say "this was a photon" or "this was a Z".
Virtual particles are tools in calculations, they are not real.

If you plot the cross section against the invariant mass, you get a spectrum that looks like this (from here):

Zres1.png


You can compare this spectrum to "what would happen in a world without Z", and then assign the difference to the Z, but that is not really fair. You can also ask "what would happen in a world without the photon". And here is the point: If you add those two results, you do not get what we observe: it is not "either/or".
 
mfb said:
It is not "either/or". You cannot look at a given collision and say "this was a photon" or "this was a Z".
Virtual particles are tools in calculations, they are not real.

So this is sort of what I'm getting at - I understand that it is not either/or. What I mean to say is, the total rate of some process involves summing up an infinite number of contributions from Feynman diagrams, higher order being much less significant (except with the strong force). Some of these diagrams include a Z, some just photons. My question is that when we do the calculations, do we still include the contributions from those diagrams which include the Z when the CM energy is less than the mass of the Z (I am fairly sure we do, just checking) and, if this is the case, do these contributions become smaller?

To reiterate - I understand that the diagrams are mathematical tools, but they do correspond to contributions to the overall rate calculation, and some of these diagrams include the Z, and some don't (which isn't to be taken as literally meaning a Z was 'definitely' there or not - as you say, they're virtual, we can't see them). I realize my wording was woolly there.
 
jeffbarrington said:
My question is that when we do the calculations, do we still include the contributions from those diagrams which include the Z when the CM energy is less than the mass of the Z (I am fairly sure we do, just checking) and, if this is the case, do these contributions become smaller?
It is relevant below 90 GeV (as you can see from the plot above, it is a significant contribution starting at about 70 GeV), but the contribution in general gets smaller if you are further away from 90 GeV.
 

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