Wave Particle Duality & Uncertainty Principle: Which Came First?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the relationship between wave-particle duality and the uncertainty principle, exploring which concept emerged first and how they are interconnected within the framework of quantum mechanics. Participants examine historical context, definitions, and implications of these theories.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Historical
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the meaning of "wave-particle duality," suggesting it is a heuristic rather than a precise term.
  • Another participant asserts that waves and particles exhibit dual behavior, but this is not universally applicable.
  • A claim is made that wave-particle duality is an incorrect concept, proposing that it is more accurate to refer to "quantum stuff." This participant emphasizes that the uncertainty principle is a theorem derived from a fully developed quantum mechanics theory.
  • Historical context is provided, indicating that Heisenberg developed the uncertainty principle between 1925 and 1927, while wave-particle duality is attributed to De Broglie's PhD thesis in 1924, suggesting it predates the uncertainty principle.
  • One participant expresses confusion about the relationship between wave-particle duality and Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, indicating a desire for clarification.
  • Another participant explains that the uncertainty principle followed from matrix mechanics, while wave-particle duality led to Schrödinger's equation and wave mechanics, highlighting that they represent different formulations of quantum mechanics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the correctness of wave-particle duality, with some arguing it is incorrect while others accept its validity in certain contexts. The relationship between the two concepts remains contested, with differing views on their historical development and implications.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions regarding the definitions and implications of wave-particle duality and the uncertainty principle, as well as the historical timeline of their development. Some participants express uncertainty about the connections between these concepts.

RQwtq
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Which of them comes first,(I mean the concept or the theory)? Did Heisenberg come up with the idea of uncertainty principle because of the discover of the wave particle duality?

Thanks for paying attention~
 
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What do you mean by "wave-particle" duality? It's usually a heuristic, rather than a specific technical term. Do you mean ##[x,p]=i\hbar##?
 
Is it true that waves sometimes behave like particles and particles sometime behave like waves? If it's true, that is what I meant...
 
The wave particle duality is actually incorrect - its neither wave nor particle - its quantum stuff. Concepts like that were part of the ideas prior to the full birth of QM that happened in December 1926 when Dirac came up with his transformation theory that basically goes by the name QM today.

The uncertainty principle follows from that fully developed theory - its a theorem about non-commuting observables.

Historically Heisenberg came up with the uncertainty principle 1925-1927. The wave particle duality probably dates from De-Broglies Phd thesis in 1924 - so it likely came first. But I want to emphasise its incorrect.

Thanks
Bill
 
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I'm working on a chemistry video for homework. I want to say that it is wave-particle duality that led Heisenberg to come up with the idea. But, really, I'm not sure about it, so I'm here to ask...Now I'm even more confused:confused:
 
RQwtq said:
I'm working on a chemistry video for homework. I want to say that it is wave-particle duality that led Heisenberg to come up with the idea. But, really, I'm not sure about it, so I'm here to ask...Now I'm even more confused:confused:

It wasn't.

It followed from the matrix mechanics he developed about that time.

The wave particle idea led to Schroedinger's equation and wave mechanics.

They were two different versions of QM.

It was suspected they were in fact the same theory.

Dirac succeeded in showing that in December 1926:
http://www.lajpe.org/may08/09_Carlos_Madrid.pdf

There were a couple of mathematical technicalities that needed elaboration due to what's called the Dirac Delta function. Von-Neumann fixed that issue in 1932 when he published his famous Mathematical Foundations of Quantum Mechanics.

Thanks
Bill
 
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Ok, that's much easier to be understood. Thank you
 
RQwtq said:
Is it true that waves sometimes behave like particles and particles sometime behave like waves? If it's true, that is what I meant...

Yes that's true - but its not a generally applicable principle because there are many circumstances where its neither.

Thanks
Bill
 
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thanks
 

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