Weak or non immunity after virus or vaccine

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  • #1
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How can it be that some people develop next to no immunity , cell memory after a Covid infection or vaccination?

Immunity develops after the body sees and fights off foreign protein aka virus presenting within the body, so whichever has gotten infected with the virus has to undergo these steps within the immune system in order to get healthy again, both for serious cases as well as mild ones. Why would it be that some can then have no lasting memory aka immunity after this?
Can it be considered an error or deficiency within the body if it doesn't manage to develop any immunity after an infection?
 

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  • #2
atyy
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Are there such cases for natural infections? For cases in which antibody levels may be low, have T cell responses been measured?

For vaccines, one reason is that they may be immunocompromised.
https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covi...consider-3rd-covid-shot-for-immunocompromised
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2781012

The COVID-19 Pfizer mRNA vaccine seems to work well even in the elderly. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00947-8/fulltext
However, that is not the case for other vaccines for other conditions. Here is an article discussing why people may not respond to vaccines.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4962729/
 
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  • #3
jim mcnamara
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We are biologic entities.

How about Zinc deficiency? Antibodies cannot be made at extremely low levels of serum Zn. Even when you have antibodies going full blast you do not ordinarily create sterilizing immunity. (This means you cannot destroy each and every virus as soon as they show up.) But you have like a 99.9% chance of greatly reduced disease or no disease at all. Not 100%

How about Selenium deficiency? Other immune cell types cannot be made efficiently. Like some kinds of B cells. So long term as well as startup immunity are both poor.

Antibody production, our fast acting first line of defense, normally wanes over time, with other aspects of the immune system, the ones with slower response time (B cells), ramping up slowly in the background. So this lets some viruses start being nasty a little before they get wiped out. i.e., maybe as much as asymptomatic disease.

How about the titer (germ count) of the dose of pathogen to start with?
A massive titer of a viral pathogen can at least temporarily overwhelm the immune system. This a common occurrence. Happened to me, several times:
Small child: 'Daddy I don't feel good'
I reach over and pickup child.
Child then sneezes right in my face..... et voila! A nice new cold just for me. And probably a few million virions free of charge, galloping down my nasal passages and tear ducts.

The point is: humans have genes and many of the combinations of them are unique. Our immune system depends on many genes. Not just one. So each person potentially can react a bit differently to a vaccine or a disease.

Our immune system and attendant inflammatory biochemical cascades vary because of genetics, what we eat in general, and exposure to sunshine Vitamin D. Just as a start on the subject.

Why would you expect otherwise?

Zinc: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9701160/
Selenium: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3277928/
Vitamin D: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3166406/
 
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  • #4
berkeman
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How can it be that some people develop next to no immunity , cell memory after a Covid infection or vaccination?

Immunity develops after the body sees and fights off foreign protein aka virus presenting within the body, so whichever has gotten infected with the virus has to undergo these steps within the immune system in order to get healthy again, both for serious cases as well as mild ones. Why would it be that some can then have no lasting memory aka immunity after this?
Can it be considered an error or deficiency within the body if it doesn't manage to develop any immunity after an infection?
Was there a paper that you read that prompted this question?
 
  • #6
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No @berkeman there isn't a specific paper per se that I was referencing or had in mind just overall chatter that I have heard all over the place and also seen studies where there are reports that some people do have a very low and fast disappearing immunity after infection or vaccine. But @atyy and @jim mcnamara already pointed out the possible causes of this. I myself can't think of anything else.

This is no scientific or useful advice but @Sagittarius A-Star from the alcoholics that I know personally I can say I am amazed at how they almost have a superhuman like ability to go through seemingly impossible situations without serious consequences.
 
  • #7
Laroxe
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Part of the pathology of Covid-19 is that it attacks the cells of the immune system and can cause significant dysregulation. In fact in people who die, widespread destruction of immune cells seems to prevent the development of antibodies while other immune signalling molecules increase the damage. This is perhaps the reason that vaccination gives a more reliable immune response.
The antibody response starts to decay quite rapidly though its this that provides immediate protection, for most people it is the T cell responses that will protect them from serious illness, these can be present independently of the antibody response.
 
  • #8
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@Laroxe I guess also from what I have read is that especially for older or sicker people the vaccination sort of performs like a "training program" for the immune system and so when and if they do contract the real virus and do get sick their immune system has the upper hand to at least fight off the larger attack and not let the virus multiply itself uncontrollably and cause a fatal infection, so with the vaccine they get simply sick like we normally do in winters instead of having a severe pneumonia.

From what I see antibodies on average are good for at least half a year for many longer.
 

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