What causes orbits to change over time?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the factors that cause orbits to change over time, focusing on both celestial bodies like planets and moons, as well as spacecraft. Participants explore various influences, including gravitational interactions, tidal forces, and other potential effects, while considering both theoretical and practical implications.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that gravitational interactions with other large bodies are significant for changing a planet's orbit, while others question what other forces might be involved if no external influences are considered.
  • One participant mentions tidal acceleration as a mechanism that influences orbits, particularly noting that orbits may tend toward tidal locking.
  • Another participant raises the question of what force is causing the Moon's orbit to drift away from Earth, attributing it to angular momentum transfer due to tidal interactions.
  • Some participants discuss the implications of the mass loss of a star over time and how this affects the orbits of surrounding planets.
  • There is mention of gravitational waves and the effects of an oblate spheroid shape of stars on orbital precession.
  • The Yarkovsky and Poynting-Robertson effects are introduced as potential influences on orbits due to solar radiation.
  • Concerns are raised about the future of Mars' moon Phobos, including the possibility of it crashing into Mars or being torn apart by tidal forces.
  • One participant argues that an impact from Phobos would not significantly alter Mars' orbit due to the mass difference between the two bodies.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the factors influencing orbital changes, with some agreeing on the role of tidal forces and gravitational interactions, while others introduce competing ideas and uncertainties regarding the effects of solar radiation and the dynamics of moons like Phobos. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

Some claims depend on specific assumptions about the absence of external forces, and there are unresolved questions regarding the long-term stability of orbits under various conditions. The discussion also touches on complex interactions that may not be fully understood or agreed upon.

Algren
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There are two examples: A planet rotating around a star and a spacecraft maneuvering through space. Let's assume that solar radiation has no affect on the spacecraft and the spacecraft is not bumping into any stuff, and niether is the planet; and no other gravitational sources are involved. What are the other things which could cause the orbit to change its shape and energy?
 
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In the case of the rocket it only has to fire up it's engine to get a change of orbit.
For the planet though, changes of orbit are largely due to gravitational interactions with other large bodies, and I can't think of anything else that would have a similar result.
 
Last edited:
Algren said:
There are two examples: A planet rotating around a star and a spacecraft maneuvering through space. Let's assume that solar radiation has no affect on the spacecraft and the spacecraft is not bumping into any stuff, and niether is the planet; and no other gravitational sources are involved. What are the other things which could cause the orbit to change its shape and energy?

Gravitational interaction of the planet with the star can change its orbit over time. Other than that, I can't think of anything. You've essentially said that no other forces are involved, and without other forces there can't be a change in the orbit.
 
Drakkith said:
Gravitational interaction of the planet with the star can change its orbit over time.
What is this called?
 
Algren said:
What is this called?
Tidal acceleration.
 
Bandersnatch said:
Tidal acceleration.
Ahh, so it seems all orbits have a tendency to proceed to an orbit which is tidally locked. Alright, thanks.
 
What force is pushing the Moon's orbit away from the Earth? Will the Earth eventually lose the Moon?
 
The mass of the star decreases over time through fusion reactions and so the planet's orbit must necessarily change.
 
Bandersnatch said:
Tidal acceleration.
My guess is Drakkith was referring to precession via General Relativity.
 
  • #10
Gravity waves will radiate energy away.
An oblate spheroid shape to the star will cause an orbit that is inclined to the star's rotational axis to precess.
Frame dragging.

If solar radiation counts:
Yarkovsky effect -- re-radiate solar radiation, but in a preferred direction.
Poynting-Robertson effect -- planet bashing into photons similar to driving in rain. More raindrops hit the windshield than the back window. (although this is from solar radiation.)
 
  • #11
Alltimegreat1 said:
What force is pushing the Moon's orbit away from the Earth? Will the Earth eventually lose the Moon?
It is caused by a transfer of angular momentum from the Earth to the Moon. The Moon raises tidal bulges on the Earth. Due to friction, the Earth's rotation drags these bulges out of alignment with the Moon. Think of this way, the Earth tries to make the bulges rotate with it, while the Moon tries to keep them in line with itself and you end up with a compromise where the bulges don't quite line up with the Moon. The the resulting gravitational pull of the bulges now tend to pull the Moon forward in its orbit, which in turn causes the Moon to lift to a higher orbit. At the same time, Earth's rotation slows down a bit.

The Earth can't lose the Moon by this process because eventually a time would come when the Earth's rotational period and the Moon's orbital period will be the same and once that happens the mechanism that increases the Moon's orbit will go away. (Also most estimates indicate that before even this happens, our Sun will have expanded into a Red Giant and could envelop both the Earth and Moon.

This process can work the other way too. If the Moon either orbited faster than the Earth rotated or orbited in the opposite direction, then it's orbit would shrink rather than grow. The Mars moon Phobos is an example of this, its orbits Mars in less time than it takes for Mars to rotate and is slowly being pulled into a lower and lower orbit.
 
  • #12
Will this send Phobos crashing into Mars?
 
  • #13
Yes I think that is what is generally concluded, unless something external to the Mars and it's moon system radically shakes thing up gravitationally.
Nearby passage of a large asteroid?
 
  • #14
rootone said:
Yes I think that is what is generally concluded, unless something external to the Mars and it's moon system radically shakes thing up gravitationally.
Nearby passage of a large asteroid?
The other possible result is that it will be torn apart and form a ring. It all depends on its structural strength. Some models suggest that it not a solid object, but more like a pile of rubble held together by a thin crust. In which case tidal forces could pull it apart when it gets close enough to Mars.
 
  • #15
And could that impact send Mars off its orbit and out of the solar system?
 
  • #16
Alltimegreat1 said:
And could that impact send Mars off its orbit and out of the solar system?
No. For one, the mass of Phobos is only 1/60,000,000 that of Mars. So even if it impacted Mars at escape velocity (5 km/sec) and you could treat this strictly as a collision, there is no way that it impart anywhere enough momentum to seriously change Mars' orbit.

But the main reason is that Mar's orbit around the Sun is really the orbit of the Mars-Phobos-Deimos barycenter, and nothing that is a result of the mutual gravitational interaction between these bodies will shift the orbit of the barycenter.
 

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