What do large moles on the body indicate?

[pinball1970]

As far as as I understand, this is a common point of view of all modern (evolutionary) biology.

The Liver has over 500 functions.

 

[Laroxe]

An interesting reply but you might wish to consider that even now somewhere between 25 and 50% of prescribed drugs are derived from Plant sources, this percentage is higher in drugs used in cancer treatment.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3560124/

There are some areas in medicine in which the results of research is effectively dominated by the biases of prevailing social beliefs, this is most obvious when we look at lifestyle interventions. Dietary research being a case in point as much of it relies upon weak correlations between poor quality data. The stupidity which generated the myths around animal fat, something that lead to mass unemployment in the diary industry, persisted for more than a decade and effectively prevented the acceptance of more accurate data. Even now, the people responsible are fighting a rearguard action to attempt to defend themselves from responsibility.

Whether attitudes about TCM may be based on ignorance, or not its surprising how often medical researchers look at some the claims, the starting point usually looks at whether certain remedies are actually effective and perhaps surprisingly, there is good evidence that some of them are. The problem for researchers in western medicine is in the complex mix of herbal remedies and the lack of reliable dose estimates. This in effect leads to various dismantling studies to identify which of the ingredients are active, it can be a slow process but might be worthwhile.

Rather like in conditions like eczema or asthma which are not well understood and have no specific or curative treatment we can't simply ignore useful treatments and all sorts of information may provide a useful starting point

 

[pinball1970]

somewhere between 25 and 50% of prescribed drugs are derived from Plant sources,

I have no problem with that, salicylic acid, Cocaine and opium all important drugs and can be obtained from plant material and were before modern pharmacology got there.
I would expect there many remedies out there being used by isolated tribes or completely undiscovered that could be useful.

 

[Spathi]

The problem is that Western medicine is based on the scientific method, which, while not perfect since it is practiced by imperfect people, has made it by far the most effective medical system that has ever existed.

May I post a small counter-argument to this statement? The US has the most expensive healthcare system, and yet the US population is not very healthy. Life expectancy in the US is 6 years less than in Switzerland, and in fact, it has started even decreasing in recent years:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/interactive/2023/american-life-expectancy-dropping/

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9462908/

 

[Bandersnatch]

And isn't it weird how life expectancy has dropped in Ukraine in recent years, even though it uses Western medicine?
You're comparing apples and oranges. Even in your example you can see how the approach to medicine is not the deciding factor in life expectancy, as both countries use the same. Unless you think that more expensive healthcare equals 'more Western' healthcare, in which case I'd only roll my eyes again.
If you want to compare the efficacy of evidence-based medicine with lack-of-evidence-based medicine (yeah, I've a bias), then you need to eliminate all confounding factors - like politics, systemic inefficiencies, accessibility, social structure and issues, geography, and whatnot. You want to drill down to testing just the essence so that you don't come out having confused correlation with causation.
Put a treatment for a given ailment, like treating infection with antibiotics or acupuncture, into a series of double-blind randomised control trials and see if it works. If it does, congratulations, it's now 'Western medicine'. If it doesn't then, well, I guess it's the other kind.

 

[Frabjous]

The US has the most expensive healthcare system, and yet the US population is not very healthy.

A better metric is how much a country spends on healthcare AND social services.

 

[Drakkith]

May I post a small counter-argument to this statement? The US has the most expensive healthcare system, and yet the US population is not very healthy. Life expectancy in the US is 6 years less than in Switzerland, and in fact, it has started even decreasing in recent years:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/interactive/2023/american-life-expectancy-dropping/

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9462908/

Ah, but the question is why. It's not because medical knowledge is lacking, it's a mix of issues related to socioeconomics and the like.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Ah, but the question is why. It's not because medical knowledge is lacking, it's a mix of issues related to socioeconomics and the like.

IMO it’s medical knowledge that is actually lacking. Unlike the other ‘Sciences’, medicine can’t be treated piece by piece. Body systems are so complex that Factorial functions take over. There are a few conditions where we can get success with a simple treatment but most malfunctions can only, at best, be ‘helped’ a bit. Knock ons and side effects are always there and medical specialists have to rely on their ‘authority’ to convince a patient that their problem has been solved.
Randomised trials do not confirm theories. They only justify a least bad treatment.

Accident repairs can be a sort of solution when you’re dealing with a system that was working fine before the accident.

 

[Drakkith]

IMO it’s medical knowledge that is actually lacking. Unlike the other ‘Sciences’, medicine can’t be treated piece by piece. Body systems are so complex that Factorial functions take over. There are a few conditions where we can get success with a simple treatment but most malfunctions can only, at best, be ‘helped’ a bit. Knock ons and side effects are always there and medical specialists have to rely on their ‘authority’ to convince a patient that their problem has been solved.
Randomised trials do not confirm theories. They only justify a least bad treatment.

Accident repairs can be a sort of solution when you’re dealing with a system that was working fine before the accident.

I don't agree. Life expectancy and overall health of the U.S. population may be declining (and I stress the 'may'), but I can't see that this is because of medical knowledge, or lack thereof. I mean, they rose to where they were because of medical knowledge and we didn't simply forget that knowledge. An aging population, skyrocketing healthcare costs, and many other factors are key in my opinion.

 

[russ_watters]

May I post a small counter-argument to this statement? The US has the most expensive healthcare system, and yet the US population is not very healthy. Life expectancy in the US is 6 years less than in Switzerland, and in fact, it has started even decreasing in recent years:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/interactive/2023/american-life-expectancy-dropping/

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9462908/

You're implying Switzerland and other western countries don't have/use western medicine?

 

[gleem]

I don't agree. Life expectancy and overall health of the U.S. population may be declining (and I stress the 'may'), but I can't see that this is because of medical knowledge, or lack thereof. I mean, they rose to where they were because of medical knowledge and we didn't simply forget that knowledge. An aging population, skyrocketing healthcare costs, and many other factors are key in my opinion.

The decreasing life expectancy recently was significantly affected due to Covid. However, there are increasing cancers, especially colorectal, increasing diabetes, and cardiac problems. So health is not improving and not because of lack of medical knowledge. Many cases may be a result of lifestyle choices but it seems that there are significant numbers that currently have no etiology.

 

[Spathi]

You're implying Switzerland and other western countries don't have/use western medicine?

The medicine in Switzerland is cheaper than in the USA, and the difference of 6 years between the life expectancy in USA and Switzerland is impressive.
One more point: in the US currently 36% people are obese, while in the Switzerland only 19%. The obesity is considered to be a disease by the American Medical Assoiciation.
I have some ideas why the population in Switzerland is healthier, but I don't want to explain them here, because they include political science considerations, and I have 8 warning points now(

 

[Drakkith]

The medicine in Switzerland is cheaper than in the USA, and the difference of 6 years between the life expectancy in USA and Switzerland is impressive.
One more point: in the US currently 36% people are obese, while in the Switzerland only 19%. The obesity is considered to be a disease by the American Medical Assoiciation.
I have some ideas why the population in Switzerland is healthier, but I don't want to explain them here, because they include political science considerations, and I have 8 warning points now(

That's fine, but the problem is that you're using two countries that both use western medicine as an argument against western medicine. If both use a similar medical system, but one is healthier than the other, then the problem is not likely to be the medical system itself. Or at least not the fundamental ideas of the medical system. If you want to talk about differences in implementation, cost, availability of treatment, or other similar topics then you'd be okay, but I think that using the difference in life expectancy and health between Switzerland and the U.S. as an argument against the fundamental ideas of western medicine is a flawed argument.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Life expectancy and overall health of the U.S. population may be declining (and I stress the 'may'), but I can't see that this is because of medical knowledge, or lack thereof.

I don't think that's a causal relationship. Quality differences between Eastern and Western medicines seem to be perceived very subjectively on this thread.

The western approach, in my experience, lacks the holistic approach; different hospital departments often seem to act in competition and the 'not our fault' problem is common. Success often seems to revolve about putting off death at the cost of patient suffering and the use of patients as guinea pigs in 'trials'. A difficult issue, of course but medics can turn into enthusiasts and sell experimental treatments to sick people on slim evidence. This can lose sight of the needs of patients and the arguments for and against can be very over-simplified (trying to turn medicine into an Engineering Discipline). But of course without experiments significant advance would be slow.

Eastern medicine has a different approach and the results are hard to compare with what western medicine achieves because of the socio-economic differences.

 

[russ_watters]

The medicine in Switzerland is cheaper than in the USA...

You didn't answer my question. Again: are you claiming Switzerland doesn't use Western Medicine? That seems to be the claim and it is obviously false. What are you doing here? Explain yourself.

 

[Drakkith]

Eastern medicine has a different approach and the results are hard to compare with what western medicine achieves because of the socio-economic differences.

I can't possible see how you can believe this. I am literally alive today because of Western medicine and without it I would have died once or twice over in my life. Eastern medicine would not have saved me because it would not have known how. And I know more than a few other people that are in the same boat as myself. There are absolutely valid complaints about how Western medical systems are implemented and used, but I find very fault with its core principles and I challenge anyone here to provide reliable evidence that another medical system is better than Western medicine.

The western approach, in my experience, lacks the holistic approach

The Eastern approach lacks any coherent approach at all. It's a mismatched and sometimes contradictory collection of beliefs fraught with severe problems that make it woefully inadequate as a medical system.

 

[Spathi]

Oriental medicine (as in Traditional Chinese Medicine, or TCM) tends to regard moles (and some other skin disruptions) as the skin's ability to eliminate substances potentially harmful to the body that were not able to eliminated by other means (digestion; or mucus from coughing, aka snot).

I have a question relating the TCM. I have read in one book, that Confucius wrote, that a common problem of medicine is that the doctor is motivated not only to cure a disease of his patient, but also to trigger a new disease so that this patient will come to the doctor again and pay him more and more money. To solve this problem, Confucius suggested to make all doctors the state officials. Is this idea expressed in the TCM now?

 

[Spathi]

You didn't answer my question. Again: are you claiming Switzerland doesn't use Western Medicine? That seems to be the claim and it is obviously false. What are you doing here? Explain yourself.

Possible I will be able to answer your question (not violating the forum rules), after getting an answer to my question above about the TCM.

 

[Frabjous]

I have a question relating the TCM. I have read in one book, that Confucius wrote, that a common problem of medicine is that the doctor is motivated not only to cure a disease of his patient, but also to trigger a new disease so that this patient will come to the doctor again and pay him more and more money. To solve this problem, Confucius suggested to make all doctors the state officials. Is this idea expressed in the TCM now?

No.

 

[sophiecentaur]

I am literally alive today because of Western medicine and without it I would have died once or twice over in my life.

I believe you, of course and that is good for all of us but personal experience can't really justify a theory. (Occam's Razor?)

The Eastern approach lacks any coherent approach at all. It's a mismatched and sometimes contradictory collection of beliefs fraught with severe problems that make it woefully inadequate as a medical system.

Western Science is basically reductionist and is great a solving and predicting much of our World but many systems (living organisms particularly) can't be tied down in this way. The cupboard full of pills that have a solution to all illnesses will never exist.

We can't dismiss a system of medicine that doesn't define success in the same way as our Western system. Even where death is concerned; in the wider scale of things, an individual living or dying may not be relevant to anyone but the immediate family and friends. No one (few of us) concerns themselves with the life or death of a random inhabitant of a distant country but we may feel the need to contribute to charitable work which may have a statistical result that is 'good' overall. That's a totally personal matter.

I have read in one book, that Confucius wrote

. . . . . . you could also quote from the Bible and the Koran but that is not a justification for any opinion that's offered on PF because it breaks the rules. This thread doesn't sit well on this forum, unfortunately.

 

[berkeman]

Thread closed for Moderation...

 

[Drakkith]

We can't dismiss a system of medicine that doesn't define success in the same way as our Western system.

I'd argue that every system of medicine has the same goal. To heal people and keep them healthy. If a system of medicine doesn't have that as its primary goal then it is difficult to even call it a system of medicine. Thus we absolutely can dismiss a system that is woefully ineffective compared to another system.

Unfortunately this thread has wandered wildly off topic and we have received several reports about it. After discussion with the other mentors it has been decided to keep this thread closed.