What does N^2 mean in the case of natural numbers?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interpretation of the notation N^2 in the context of natural numbers, specifically addressing its meaning as the Cartesian product of natural numbers. Participants explore how to express conditions involving multiple integers in a concise symbolic form.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that N^2 represents the Cartesian product ##\mathbb{N} \times \mathbb{N}##.
  • There is a question about whether N^2 means "for all two pairs of natural numbers, a and b."
  • Participants discuss how to represent conditions involving integers k, l, and m in a single line, with various symbolic forms suggested.
  • One participant notes that removing parentheses in the notation changes the interpretation from an ordered triplet to simply three natural numbers.
  • There is a clarification that an ordered triplet (k, l, m) is distinct from the individual numbers k, l, and m, as the order matters in the former.
  • Another participant introduces a different interpretation of N^2 related to set mappings, suggesting that it could represent the set of all maps of a set with two elements into another set.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express different interpretations of N^2 and its implications, leading to multiple competing views regarding its meaning and the appropriate symbolic representation of conditions involving integers. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best notation and understanding of the concepts involved.

Contextual Notes

There are nuances in the definitions and interpretations of ordered triplets versus individual numbers, and the implications of notation changes are not fully resolved. The discussion also touches on the practicality of writing conditions in mathematical expressions.

MienTommy
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What does the N^2 mean in this case? (Image below)

Does it mean, for all two pairs of natural numbers, a and b?

How would I represent non pair numbers, i.e. how would I write "For integers k,l, and m such that k>1, l>2, m>k+l" all in one line?
 

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MienTommy said:
What does the N^2 mean in this case? (Image below)
It means the Cartesian product ##\mathbb{N} \times \mathbb{N}##
Does it mean, for all two pairs of natural numbers, a and b?
Yes.
How would I represent non pair numbers, i.e. how would I write "For integers k,l, and m such that k>1, l>2, m>k+l" all in one line?
You just did, didn't you? What are non pair numbers? Or did you mean
$$\forall_{ \begin{array} ((k,l,m) \in \mathbb{N}\times\mathbb{N}\times\mathbb{N} \\ k > 1 \\ l > 2 \\ m>k+l \end{array}}$$
 
Yes that is what I meant. I wanted to know the symbol form.
Would you add a such that symbol '|' after N×N×N?

If I removed the parenthesis, ∀k,l,m∈N×N×N | k>1, l>2, m>k+l
Then would it mean the same thing?
 
Last edited:
MienTommy said:
Yes that is what I meant. I wanted to know the symbol form. Would you add a such that symbol '|' after N×N×N? If I removed the parenthesis, ∀k,l,m∈N×N×N | k>1, l>2, m>k+l

Then would it mean the same thing?
If you remove the parenthesis, then one ##\mathbb{N}## is enough. There is a subtle difference between them: ##k,l,m \in \mathbb{N}## are simply three natural numbers, whereas ##(k,l,m) \in \mathbb{N}^3## is a ordered triplet. In most cases this doesn't really matter, but rigorously it's not the same. And of course one wouldn't actually write all conditions below each other since it's impractical. An alternative would be to write ##\forall_{k,l,m \in \mathbb{N}} \,\text{ with }\, k>1\,,\,l>2\,,\,m>k+l \;:\;## etc.
 
I see. What is the difference between the ordered triplet and the other?
 
MienTommy said:
I see. What is the difference between the ordered triplet and the other?
##(1,2,3) \neq (2,3,1)## but ##1,2,3## are only three numbers.
 
MienTommy said:
What does the N^2 mean in this case? (Image below)

Does it mean, for all two pairs of natural numbers, a and b?

How would I represent non pair numbers, i.e. how would I write "For integers k,l, and m such that k>1, l>2, m>k+l" all in one line?
If A and B are sets A^B is the set of all maps of B into A. In your case 2 stands for a set with two elements, {1,2} for example.
 

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