What does Shakespeare mean in plain english

[tomishere]

Its from midsummer nights dream, act 5 scene 1. Quince is giving his perfomamnce as a lion, and he has just assured the audience that he isn't really a lion, he's just acting one out.
So what i don't understand is the analogies that are used --fox, goose, valour, wisdom etc --- and how they all fit together. What are they saying in plain english?? (ive already looked at a lot of other plain english versions but they are also confusing (to me)
thanks for any help

DEMETRIUS:
The very best at a beast, my lord, that e'er I saw.

LYSANDER:
This lion is a very fox for his valour.

THESEUS:
True; and a goose for his discretion.


DEMETRIUS:
Not so, my lord; for his valour cannot carry his
discretion, and the fox carries the goose.


THESEUS:
His discretion, I am sure, cannot carry his valour;
for the goose carries not the fox. It is well. Leave it to his
discretion, and let us listen to the moon."

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

These are sarcastic references to fables. In fables, the fox is crafty, not valorous, while the goose is silly, and lacks discretion.

 

[tomishere]

Yes I figured that the fox is crafty and the swan either wise and/or silly, but what does WS mean plainly, in each line, in todays english? its totally confusing imo. thanks for the reply.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

DEMETRIUS:
The very best at a beast, my lord, that e'er I saw.
That's the best portrayal of an animal that I ever saw.

LYSANDER:
This lion is a very fox for his valour.
This lion is exactly like a fox because he is brave.

THESEUS:
True; and a goose for his discretion.
True; and he is a goose because of his discretion.


DEMETRIUS:
Not so, my lord; for his valour cannot carry his
discretion, and the fox carries the goose.
(recall the saying "Discretion is the better part of valor") Your analogy is not a good one. He is not brave enough to justify all of his discretion, and yet the fox is strong enough to carry the goose.

THESEUS:
His discretion, I am sure, cannot carry his valour;
for the goose carries not the fox.
He is not discreet enough considering his bravery just as the goose is not strong enough to carry a fox.

It is well. Leave it to his discretion, and let us listen to the moon.
It's OK, let him do as he will while we waste our time with something slightly less silly.

 

[AlephZero]

There is probably also a reference to an old board game called "fox and geese" (google for more information about it).

One player is the fox. The other player starts with a flock of 13 geese. The fox wins if it catches all the geese, one at a time. The geese win if they can prevent the fox from moving, within the rules of the game.

The fox wins by "valour", the geese win by strategy (or "discretion").

 

[tomishere]

ok thanks for the translation..im still going through it, idk why but it confused me. Never heard of "discretion is better part of valour" , but after plugging into WIKIquote I noticed its first used in Henry IV: "The better part of valour is discretion, in the which better part I have saved my life." (Falstaff) (which (i think) came after MSND). anyway, thanks for clarifying all of this!

 

[zoobyshoe]

ok thanks for the translation..im still going through it, idk why but it confused me. Never heard of "discretion is better part of valour" , but after plugging into WIKIquote I noticed its first used in Henry IV: "The better part of valour is discretion, in the which better part I have saved my life." (Falstaff) (which (i think) came after MSND). anyway, thanks for clarifying all of this!

This makes it unlikely that Shakespeare is alluding to "Discretion is the better part of valor," since he, himself, authored that saying in Henry IV, Part One.

Falstaff has saved his life by playing dead on the battlefield:

I am no counterfeit. To die is to be a counterfeit, for he
is but the counterfeit of a man who hath not the life of
a man. But to counterfeit dying, when a man thereby
liveth, is to be no counterfeit, but the true and perfect
image of life indeed. The better part of valour is discretion,
in the which better part I have saved my life.

http://www.shakespeareswords.com/Plays.aspx?Ac=5&SC=4&IdPlay=33



I don't know exactly what all these royal mockeries mean. If the meaning is explained anywhere it is probably in the editions of Shakespeare's works edited by Samuel Johnson. He was concerned about deciphering all the turns of speech and inside jokes that were already becoming obscure in his day, 150 - 200 years after Shakespeare.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

This makes it unlikely that Shakespeare is alluding to "Discretion is the better part of valor," since he, himself, authored that saying in Henry IV, Part One.

But he may have had this exchange from Midsummer in mind when he wrote Henry IV.

 

[zoobyshoe]

But he may have had this exchange from Midsummer in mind when he wrote Henry IV.

I have to admit that it's possible that the line from Henry became so instantly famous and oft quoted that WS felt confident he could allude to it and have the allusion understood, but my inclination is to suppose neither he nor anyone else could be sure the audience for one play would be conversant with his previous plays.

Generally what bother's me about the notion of him doing this, though, is that it would be a little too cocky for someone who seems to have deliberately tried to remain as anonymous to history as possible. He could have, but never did, write an autobiography, criticism of other playwrights, a treatise on playwriting, a treatise on poetry, you name it, but he seems not to have wanted to call attention to himself personally at all. I'm not convinced he'd pat himself on the back this way. He left such a faint personal footprint that some people are convinced he never existed, as you probably know.

At any rate, I would check Samuel Johnson. He's probably the only reliable potential source for a proper explanation of anything obscure in Shakespeare.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

You might be overthinking this. I only meant that the idea may have been rattling around in his own mind between the writing of the two plays, not related to anything that he expected from his audience.

 

[zoobyshoe]

You might be overthinking this. I only meant that the idea may have been rattling around in his own mind between the writing of the two plays, not related to anything that he expected from his audience.

The Midsummer's dialog is obviously word play on concepts known to the audience. It's clear WS assumes the discretion/valor, fox/goose pairs are in place in most people's minds, but it's unclear to me how these are being used to make fun of Lion.

Enter Lion and Moonshine

Lion
You, ladies, you, whose gentle hearts do fear
The smallest monstrous mouse that creeps on floor,
May now perchance both quake and tremble here,
When lion rough in wildest rage doth roar.
Then know that I, one Snug the joiner, am
A lion-fell, nor else no lion's dam;
For, if I should as lion come in strife
Into this place, 'twere pity on my life.

Lion is concerned about actually frightening the ladies.

THESEUS
A very gentle beast, of a good conscience.
DEMETRIUS
The very best at a beast, my lord, that e'er I saw.
LYSANDER
This lion is a very fox for his valour.
THESEUS
True; and a goose for his discretion.

So, they're all poking fun at the Lion's apparent unwillingness to actually appear to be a lion, but exactly what's being said by comparing him to a fox and goose is lost on me.

What they say about Wall earlier, is completely accessible, and makes me smile every time I read it:

THESEUS
Would you desire lime and hair to speak better?
DEMETRIUS
It is the wittiest partition that ever I heard
discourse, my lord.

What they're saying about Lion would probably be just as witty, if we only really understood the references. AlephZero might be right about the game, but we'd have to prove that then terminology was to speak of the fox's dedicated moves as his "valor" and the geeses's's as their "discretion". Was capturing a goose in that game termed "carrying" it?

And, yeah, I have no idea what the possessive form of "geese" is.

 

[Vagn]

The Midsummer's dialog is obviously word play on concepts known to the audience. It's clear WS assumes the discretion/valor, fox/goose pairs are in place in most people's minds, but it's unclear to me how these are being used to make fun of Lion.
Lion is concerned about actually frightening the ladies.
So, they're all poking fun at the Lion's apparent unwillingness to actually appear to be a lion, but exactly what's being said by comparing him to a fox and goose is lost on me.

What they say about Wall earlier, is completely accessible, and makes me smile every time I read it:
What they're saying about Lion would probably be just as witty, if we only really understood the references. AlephZero might be right about the game, but we'd have to prove that then terminology was to speak of the fox's dedicated moves as his "valor" and the geeses's's as their "discretion". Was capturing a goose in that game termed "carrying" it?

And, yeah, I have no idea what the possessive form of "geese" is.

Could it not simply be that foxes were/are known in Europe as being cunning, so where a lion would usually be valorous, this particular lion could be perceived as cowardly instead rather than strong.
Geese are often seen as quite loud birds, which could be considered as the opposite of discreet perhaps?

 

[zoobyshoe]

Could it not simply be that foxes were/are known in Europe as being cunning, so where a lion would usually be valorous, this particular lion could be perceived as cowardly instead rather than strong.
Geese are often seen as quite loud birds, which could be considered as the opposite of discreet perhaps?

That's the thing; foxes are not associated with either bravery or cowardice, just cunning, and we don't know if it was common to compare an indiscreet person to a goose. I am pretty sure WS was tapping into associations that were already in the air at the time, not making new ones here. So, this is possible and that's possible, but we don't know for sure what the joke was.

 

[jobyts]

From the title, I thought OP was asking about the word meaning of 'Shakespeare'.

 

[lisab]

From the title, I thought OP was asking about the word meaning of 'Shakespeare'.

Oh that would be "wiggle a javelin".

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

When you thrust your hand out to shake someone else's hand and miss so that your fingers poke their stomach, that's a shake spear.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I thought it was "shakes pear," a reference to shaking a fruit tree to make the fruit fall off. I'm pretty sure his ancestors were pear poachers.

 

[AlephZero]

Back on topic: why does the dialog have to mean anything at all? Isn't the scene about a bunch of retards pretending to be intellectuals?

 

[zoobyshoe]

Back on topic: why does the dialog have to mean anything at all? Isn't the scene about a bunch of retards pretending to be intellectuals?

Which "bunch" do you mean? The Royals or the Rude Mechanicals, or the participants in this thread?

 

[tomishere]

zoobyshoe coincidentally I've been reading johnsons preface, ..i just jumped ahead to see notes on msnd but he doesn't notate that play for some reason. But he doees say in preface that shakespeares sources were common knowledge in his day..also that shakespeare's plays have a decided lack of in-jokes., and this is what largely contributes to the timelessness of his characters --at least this is what i get from johnson (its pretty dense reading fyi) ( i can provide the quotes if u are still interested in this topic) but despite that, i think the fox/lion/goose were allusions common then but lost on todays reader. I think that's what u said earlier anyway, no?
alephzero, the exchange is between the intellectuals; they are commenting on the retards, that's why i think the allusions must have made some sort of sense to an elizabethan audience.

 

[ImaLooser]

Its from midsummer nights dream, act 5 scene 1. Quince is giving his perfomamnce as a lion, and he has just assured the audience that he isn't really a lion, he's just acting one out.
So what i don't understand is the analogies that are used --fox, goose, valour, wisdom etc --- and how they all fit together. What are they saying in plain english?? (ive already looked at a lot of other plain english versions but they are also confusing (to me)
thanks for any help

DEMETRIUS:
The very best at a beast, my lord, that e'er I saw.

LYSANDER:
This lion is a very fox for his valour.

THESEUS:
True; and a goose for his discretion.


DEMETRIUS:
Not so, my lord; for his valour cannot carry his
discretion, and the fox carries the goose.


THESEUS:
His discretion, I am sure, cannot carry his valour;
for the goose carries not the fox. It is well. Leave it to his
discretion, and let us listen to the moon."

Geese are very noisy and aggressive birds, and not very smart. They haven't got any discretion, so the commentary is facetious. Comparing a person to a goose is implying that he-she is an empty-headed blabbermouth.

If a fox catches a goose it carries it in its mouth.

In those days conversation was much more of an art than today: they didn't have TV to entertain them, so witty repartee like this was prized.

 

[zoobyshoe]

zoobyshoe coincidentally I've been reading johnsons preface, ..i just jumped ahead to see notes on msnd but he doesn't notate that play for some reason.

Sorry to hear this. But I'm glad you checked.

But he doees say in preface that shakespeares sources were common knowledge in his day..also that shakespeare's plays have a decided lack of in-jokes., and this is what largely contributes to the timelessness of his characters --at least this is what i get from johnson (its pretty dense reading fyi) ( i can provide the quotes if u are still interested in this topic) but despite that, i think the fox/lion/goose were allusions common then but lost on todays reader. I think that's what u said earlier anyway, no?

Yes, I've read that preface, which is why I was confident in saying that, whatever the allusions meant, they would have been clear to his audience at the time.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

But they're clear today. They come from Aesop's fables.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Perhaps he also had these in mind:
Fox and goose constellation.
Fox and goose song.

 

[zoobyshoe]

But they're clear today. They come from Aesop's fables.

I've never read them. I'm aware from other sources that the fox is linked to cunning, craft, sneakiness. Therefore:

"This Lion is a very fox for his valor."

should mean that the lion's demonstrated bravery is actually a ruse. The thing is, Lion doesn't demonstrate either bravery or cowardice. What he actually demonstrates is concern; "good conscience."

These two responses make sense:

"THESEUS
A very gentle beast, of a good conscience.
DEMETRIUS
The very best at a beast, my lord, that e'er I saw."

but going on to call him a fox for his valor seems to miss the target.

Had the line been, "This lion is a very fox for his deceitfulness" then we could understand him to be being mocked for his conscience-ridden unwillingness to even try to deceive.

 

[AlephZero]

alephzero, the exchange is between the intellectuals; they are commenting on the retards

But as Zooby already pointed out: which are really the intellectuals, and which are really the retards?

 

[256bits]

in a manner of saying, Shakespeare wrote tongue in cheek, and the audience of the day would have appreciated double meanings of phrases and words.

These two responses make sense:

"THESEUS
A very gentle beast, of a good conscience.
DEMETRIUS
The very best at a beast, my lord, that e'er I saw."

Do real beasts have a conscience? and are lions gentle?
DEMETRIUS is playing with the audience by stating that the performance is the best he has ever seen, meaning obviously the opposite - that the portrayal of the lion by the performer is beastly.

LYSANDER:
This lion is a very fox for his valour.

THESEUS:
True; and a goose for his discretion.

Foxes are timid, not brave.
I am not sure here whether by discretion shakespeare is referring to wisdom, which geese supposidly lack (in contrast to Mother Goose), or by the cackling off at nothing which geese seem to do.

DEMETRIUS:
Not so, my lord; for his valour cannot carry his
discretion, and the fox carries the goose.

This lion has shown no great bravery, yet a timid fox can catch a goose.( predator catching prey)

THESEUS:
His discretion, I am sure, cannot carry his valour;
for the goose carries not the fox. It is well. Leave it to his
discretion, and let us listen to the moon."

this lion is certainly not wise enough to be brave.
Well, this lion is what he is.
we might as well listen to the moon than him.

 

[zoobyshoe]

in a manner of saying, Shakespeare wrote tongue in cheek, and the audience of the day would have appreciated double meanings of phrases and words.



Do real beasts have a conscience? and are lions gentle?
DEMETRIUS is playing with the audience by stating that the performance is the best he has ever seen, meaning obviously the opposite - that the portrayal of the lion by the performer is beastly.

I'm sorry but, "Duh."

Foxes are timid, not brave.

No. They are not known for either bravery or timidity. They are tricksters, crafty, cunning.

 

[256bits]

The contrast with a lion and a fox, which is what shakespeare is doing here, he is contrasting bravery or valour of a lion with the timid( run away from a fight ) behavior of a fox., with what LYSANDER and THESEUS state.
Bravery does not contrast with being tricky, crafty, nor cunning in this exchange.

when DEMETRIUS and THESEUS exchange, then you can add in the cunning of the fox to catch the prey.

as I said Shakespeare uses the same word in different passages in a diferent meaning.

and the "Duh" seems an appropriate exclamation in the interpretaion of shakespeare, would you not agree.

 

[zoobyshoe]

The contrast with a lion and a fox, which is what shakespeare is doing here, he is contrasting bravery or valour of a lion with the timid( run away from a fight ) behavior of a fox...

You are imposing this "timid" behavior on the fox from nowhere. This is not the meme about foxes. The meme is: craft, cunning, skill.

There is no natural 'dipole,' as it were, composed of craftiness and timidity. Craftiness is not adopted to cover for, or make up for, timidity. A good con often requires great boldness. Craftiness might make up for an imbalance of physical strength, such as when Odysseus tricks the Cyclops, who is much too huge for him to directly fight, but you can't call Odysseus "timid" for not even trying. He's smart: knows his limitations, not timid.

Fox and the Crow: the fox gets the crow, perched high in the tree, to drop his piece of cheese by flattering him on his beautiful singing voice and asking him to sing something. The fox is certainly not afraid of the crow. He just can't reach him.

 

[256bits]

This makes me wonder if after the show in Shakespeaer's time the audience debated after the performance on what the lines meant as is being done here . This is only one small passage in the play . Did the writer choose carefully his words and phrases or just had a natural gift. Intriguing.

 

[tomishere]

256bits was that you who said something about "darwintunes" a while back?? if so, did you read the whole paper by any chance?

 

[256bits]

256bits was that you who said something about "darwintunes" a while back?? if so, did you read the whole paper by any chance?

in reference to what exactly, at the moment i do not recall darwintunes.