News What Drives Parents to Cheat in College Admissions?

[TeethWhitener]

I am unaware of any correlation between any Novel Prize recipient and their undergraduate institution

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_university_affiliation
Includes some info on undergrad and grad affiliations.

 

[Andy Resnick]

Even more so, claiming say a community college opportunities are comparable to MIT etc is bizarre.

Ugh- when did I say that? I'm not interested in a straw-man argument.

 

[Andy Resnick]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_university_affiliation
Includes some info on undergrad and grad affiliations.

Unless I misread the list, that's a list of Nobel laureates' 'current home'. Not a list of where they received their BS degree.

 

[TeethWhitener]

There's also this:
http://money.com/money/4364104/top-colleges-fortune-500-ceos/

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Ugh- when did I say that? I'm not interested in a straw-man argument.

Wouldn't your argument still be the same if I went to a community college? textbooks, standards etc?

 

[TeethWhitener]

Unless I misread the list, that's a list of Nobel laureates' 'current home'. Not a list of where they received their BS degree.

You misread it. It's a list of all affiliates (profs, research assistants, grad students, undergrads). Scroll down further.

 

[Andy Resnick]

There's also this:
http://money.com/money/4364104/top-colleges-fortune-500-ceos/

Again, not sure that maps to where they earned their BS or BA degree.

 

[Andy Resnick]

Wouldn't your argument still be the same if I went to a community college? textbooks, standards etc?

Was that my argument? I believe I clearly qualified the question:

"I am not blind to reality, but if your instructors used the same textbooks, if you went through the same course content, if you were held to the same standards, then why would you denigrate your program?"

 

[russ_watters]

Why? I'm asking in a serious way. In what specific ways as your education second-rate? I am not blind to reality, but if your instructors used the same textbooks, if you went through the same course content, if you were held to the same standards, then why would you denigrate your program? What does that say about you?

Andy, please. You're taking/making this way too personal and not thinking it through. It's not denegration, it's obvious logic. *In reality* neither the course content nor the standards will be equal for different universities. If standards were the same, nearly everyone at Harvard would get all A's and everyone at a lower tier univeristy would get F's.

And because the students are *not* equal, the pace of learning is different and therefore those with better students tend to learn more. That's precisely the reason that different levels of classes exist in high school, for example. That stratification does not suddenly go away when you go to college.

The stratification of professers is a real thing too, but IMO it is less important because of the demands on the professor; better outcomes are primarily a result of better students, not better teachers.

 

[TeethWhitener]

Again, not sure that maps to where they earned their BS or BA degree.

Just trying to help. If you want answers that badly, I suggest you do your own research.

 

[Andy Resnick]

You misread it. It's a list of all affiliates (profs, research assistants, grad students, undergrads). Scroll down further.

I think you need to parse the lit a little better: For example, the Yale alums include people who earned PhD and MD degrees.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

The stratification of professers is a real thing too, but IMO it is less important because of the demands on the professor; better outcomes are primarily a result of better students, not better teachers.

Who grooms the student into being a good student? Teachers? I was horrible at algebra, great at geometry. The teacher was the difference.

 

[russ_watters]

Who grooms the student into being a good student? Teachers? I was horrible at algebra, great at geometry. The teacher was the difference.

Granted. I've had good and bad teachers too. But I see two reasons to count them lower(though not totally discount):

1. Students (and in high school, parents) always have the most direct control over their learning.

2. In college (particularly STEM), professors are not typically hired for their teaching skill, but rather their research. And I don't think the two are well correlated. So I don't expect the teaching quality to be as stratified as the student quality.

 

[jasonRF]

This is actually a very interesting point- I do not know how my institution (or any institution) sets the size of their incoming Freshman class, nor do I know how 'elastic' that number is.

Most colleges have very little, if any, elasticity in class size. The college I went to is the same size as when I applied about 30 years ago. However, they now have three times as many applicants and a much higher yield (a larger percentage of the admitted students accept the offer); thus the admission rate is about a quarter of what it was when I applied (about 10% now instead of about 40% back in my day). The credentials of the current students are most likely significantly higher than the credentials of my peers when I was there. A student like me would never gain admission today, even though they could do the work; the curriculum looks updated but no more rigorous than it was back then. This massive increase in applicants to a very small number of "elite" universities is either a symptom or a cause (or both in a feedback loop?) of the current college admissions insanity.

I'm glad my kids have no interest in my alma mater so they will never wonder if they only gained admission due to legacy status, although realistically rejection would be expected. They also won't have to try and compete against a student body that is now incredibly competitive; I was reading about some student-run clubs on campus that have single-digit admit rates. Yes, you apply to clubs now. Jeesh!

jason

 

[russ_watters]

Here's pay by undergrad university:
https://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/bachelors

A couple of caveats:
-Military academy grads spend at least 5 years as officers before entering the workforce, so that may skew their rank.

-STEM-only schools may outperform liberal arts or broad-based schools simply by their mix of majors. This likely explains why MIT(2) ranks higher than Harvard (6).

 

[Andy Resnick]

Andy, please. You're taking/making this way too personal and not thinking it through. It's not denegration, it's obvious logic. *In reality* neither the course content nor the standards will be equal for different universities. If standards were the same, nearly everyone at Harvard would get all A's and everyone at a lower tier univeristy would get F's.

And because the students are *not* equal, the pace of learning is different and therefore those with better students tend to learn more. That's precisely the reason that different levels of classes exist in high school, for example. That stratification does not suddenly go away when you go to college.

The stratification of professers is a real thing too, but IMO it is less important because of the demands on the professor; better outcomes are primarily a result of better students, not better teachers.

You are right- I am taking this personally. As a parent of a 6th grader, I deal with clear evidence of parental overinvolvement in academic assignments all the time. I'm an educator who deals with cheating students on a regular basis- and the reason they cheat is because of the fear of a B+. I deal with students who have a hard time performing because they are products of a social and educational system that has told them, explicitly and implicitly, that they are not going to be successful.

I regularly deal with the fruit of parental/social fears about 'meritocracy'. And don't think that this type of cheating is limited to academic admissions- consider how the fear of failure results in manifold ethical violations in research.

 

[Andy Resnick]

I was reading about some student-run clubs on campus that have single-digit admit rates. Yes, you apply to clubs now. Jeesh!

jason

Yep- there are years-long waiting lists for *kindergarten*. Life has become a competitive sport.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I deal with clear evidence of parental overinvolvement in academic assignments all the time.

My wife is a Montessori teacher for 3, 4 and 5 years olds and this is an issue for her. It starts even that young!

 

[Andy Resnick]

My wife is a Montessori teacher for 3, 4 and 5 years olds and this is an issue for her. It starts even that young!

I know! This is the systemic problematic belief I have been (over)talking about- that if you don't get your kid into the 'right' school, they are doomed for life.

 

[russ_watters]

You are right- I am taking this personally. As a parent of a 6th grader, I deal with clear evidence of parental overinvolvement in academic assignments all the time. I'm an educator who deals with cheating students on a regular basis- and the reason they cheat is because of the fear of a B+. I deal with students who have a hard time performing because they are products of a social and educational system that has told them, explicitly and implicitly, that they are not going to be successful.

I regularly deal with the fruit of parental/social fears about 'meritocracy'. And don't think that this type of cheating is limited to academic admissions- consider how the fear of failure results in manifold ethical violations in research.

Ok, but I don't see how any of this relates to the side discussion about *real* (vs fraudulent) stratification. Do you think that because we see real stratification exists that we condone the fraud?

Frankly I was sensing your personal reaction was due to your own job and school. Stratification exists in society whether we like it or not. But we don't need to measure ourselves in it to find happiness.

 

[gmax137]

The bizarre or "laughable" part to me, is the idea that proficiency in sports - athletic ability - provides a side door into these universities. I mean, suppose the applicant had really been the star water polo player, or rower, that they pretended to be. Why should that be an "allowed" reason for their getting in? Or, put another way, why were the legitimate athletes granted acceptance? Maybe athletic excellence signals a "stick to it" mindset, kind of like getting to Eagle in scouts? I'm not sure I believe that.

And I get it, for "big" sports, many schools believe admitting top athletes into their programs pays off in alumni donations. It's true, but bizarre in my opinion.

What if this attitude carried on "in real life?" You go in for a job interview, and after reviewing your actual qualifications, you start talking about rowing on the weekends. Is that really a reason to be hired? What's next? Do you tell the interviewer you can bench press more than the guy in the waiting room?

 

[StatGuy2000]

I'm glad my kids have no interest in my alma mater so they will never wonder if they only gained admission due to legacy status, although realistically rejection would be expected. They also won't have to try and compete against a student body that is now incredibly competitive; I was reading about some student-run clubs on campus that have single-digit admit rates. Yes, you apply to clubs now. Jeesh!

jason

If you don't mind my asking, what was your alma mater? And if not your alma mater, what colleges/universities have your children expressed interest in?

If you don't feel comfortable answering here, please feel free to PM me.

 

[jasonRF]

I know! This is the systemic problematic belief I have been (over)talking about- that if you don't get your kid into the 'right' school, they are doomed for life.

Agreed - and our kids absorb this mindset from their friends (and the parents of their friends). And if I am honest, there have been a few times when I have noticed that I have started to fall into that trap myself and had to correct myself. It took awhile to convince my elder child that this is a myth. Once she finally found and visited a true "safety" school (accepts at least 70% of applicants) that had great academic programs, research opportunities, and campus life, then she finally believed. It also lowered her stress about high school, since she knew that she would have good options even if she doesn't get perfect grades or take all of the hardest classes. The younger child has observed all of this so will hopefully have an easier time of things.

Jason

 

[StatGuy2000]

I've had a chance to read about the US university admissions scandal with some interest, mainly because of what it reveals about both the competitiveness of the actual schools themselves and the lengths to which some parents and students take to be admitted to specific "elite" schools.

From my perspective, Canadian universities operate somewhat differently, since in Canada, there really are no "elite" schools, but instead there are elite programs, since Canadian students generally are required to select what department and what program within each university they wish to apply in high school prior to being accepted (back in my days, I was required to select 3 universities, with one program each for each university, within my home province, followed by however many schools outside of my province I wished to apply to).

There are certain elite programs within specific universities that are highly competitive (for example, the Software Engineering program at the University of Waterloo, or the Engineering Science program at the University of Toronto, my alma mater).

 

[StatGuy2000]

Yep- there are years-long waiting lists for *kindergarten*. Life has become a competitive sport.

Sounds to me that a sizable portion of American families are taking their cues from Japan -- and I'm speaking as someone who has roots in that country and am aware of the culture of academic competitiveness and the "examination hell" to try to enter the elite universities there.

 

[Andy Resnick]

Ok, but I don't see how any of this relates to the side discussion about *real* (vs fraudulent) stratification. Do you think that because we see real stratification exists that we condone the fraud?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'stratification'. My point is that the underlying intent behind fraudulent undergraduate admissions arises from a broader social pathology regarding social status and privilege- things that have nothing to do with education.

Frankly I was sensing your personal reaction was due to your own job and school. Stratification exists in society whether we like it or not. But we don't need to measure ourselves in it to find happiness.

Yes, I admit that some of my reaction is driven by my personal experience teaching semester after semester of first-generation and underrepresented minority groups- students that I was not exposed to in my own undergraduate and graduate experience- and I wonder how many more cases we are likely to discover.

 

[Andy Resnick]

Agreed - and our kids absorb this mindset from their friends (and the parents of their friends). And if I am honest, there have been a few times when I have noticed that I have started to fall into that trap myself and had to correct myself. It took awhile to convince my elder child that this is a myth. Once she finally found and visited a true "safety" school (accepts at least 70% of applicants) that had great academic programs, research opportunities, and campus life, then she finally believed. It also lowered her stress about high school, since she knew that she would have good options even if she doesn't get perfect grades or take all of the hardest classes. The younger child has observed all of this so will hopefully have an easier time of things.

Jason

I appreciate the fact that we all can have this discussion- it's uncomfortable, but hopefully some lurker is reading this and also feeling reassured.

 

[StatGuy2000]

The bizarre or "laughable" part to me, is the idea that proficiency in sports - athletic ability - provides a side door into these universities. I mean, suppose the applicant had really been the star water polo player, or rower, that they pretended to be. Why should that be an "allowed" reason for their getting in? Or, put another way, why were the legitimate athletes granted acceptance? Maybe athletic excellence signals a "stick to it" mindset, kind of like getting to Eagle in scouts? I'm not sure I believe that.

And I get it, for "big" sports, many schools believe admitting top athletes into their programs pays off in alumni donations. It's true, but bizarre in my opinion.

What if this attitude carried on "in real life?" You go in for a job interview, and after reviewing your actual qualifications, you start talking about rowing on the weekends. Is that really a reason to be hired? What's next? Do you tell the interviewer you can bench press more than the guy in the waiting room?

But keep in mind that in American society (and to varying degrees in other societies as well), athletic ability is a signal of social status (often disguised as demonstrations of "leadership skills") and that social status opens doors in various areas of life, from academics to employment in various areas of business, politics, etc, especially in leadership positions.

 

[Andy Resnick]

Sounds to me that a sizable portion of American families are taking their cues from Japan -- and I'm speaking as someone who has roots in that country and am aware of the culture of academic competitiveness and the "examination hell" to try to enter the elite universities there.

Ah yes- 'entrance exams'. Not just Japan, but China and India as well. I cannot imagine dealing with those.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Ah yes- 'entrance exams'. Not just Japan, but China and India as well. I cannot imagine dealing with those.

Not just in those countries -- every country in Asia that I am aware of has some variation of an entrance exam requirement to be admitted into university. Some countries (including Japan) even require entrance exams to be admitted into secondary school (in Japan, compulsory education ends at the equivalent of American junior high school, although the overwhelming majority of students do complete secondary school).

My understanding is that even some European countries (I'm thinking of France as an example) require competitive entrance exams to be admitted into universities.