News What Drives Support for Obama Despite Concerns Over His Record?

[Cyrus]

Why support Obama? How could anyone be unhappy with Obama? The guy is amazing!

Officially banned the use of torture
Closing Gitmo
Reestablishing the credibility of the US around the globe [as did we by electing him!]
Helped to orchestrate a response to the in-process global economic meltdown
Recall that he was a superstar even among global leaders!. Amazing! Even they can see that Obama is a once-in-a-lifetime leader.
Reacted forcefully and quickly to intervene in the meltdown of the US economy.
Renewed long-term effort to ban all nuclear weapons

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-doomsday-clock-still-ticks

Very likely to get 90% or more of what he wanted for health care reform. Presidents have been trying for seventy years. This alone is enough to mark his place in history as one of the greats.

Has shown steady resolve in his treatment of Afghanistan. Has used force where possible against terrorist camps in Pakistan, as he said that he would.

In spite of the fact that many economists argued that, in order to save them, Obama would have to nationalize the banks, he refused to do so; making it clear even to a lunatic that the claims that Obama is a "socialist" are lunatic. He had the perfect opportunity to seize power at the financial heart of the nation, but he didn't. Of course, even that isn't enough to change the minds of his detractors.

He angers the fringe on the right and the left because he is operating in the middle. He is smart, skilled, calm, and calculating. He is dedicated to the right side of the right issues and he stays focused. While he is human and will make mistakes, and he has, so far he is as close to being the ideal President as any I have seen in my lifetime. Thank God that great men appear in times of great crisis.

I take a completely opposite view of him so far. I think a lot of these points are still muddy at best.

 

[Cyrus]

On the first read this statement baffled me. You must have some familiarity with the fact that the day after Obama took office he promised http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-On-National-Security-5-21-09/" .
But after re-examination of Obama's statement contains its own explanation for the widespread lack of seriousness Russ mentioned is evident right there - the naivete expressed by Obama both in underestimating the need for Gitmo and in underestimating the complexity in the disposition of the existing prisoners. I posted at the time of this action that the Washington Post carried a story stating Obama "ended" the "war on terror' the same day by signing a piece of paper. With insane reporting like that it is understandable how people don't take the issue seriously.

Don't worry, no one reads the newspapers anymore anyways. Haven't you heard? They are all going down the toilet. :)

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I take a completely opposite view of him so far. I think a lot of these points are still muddy at best.

Maybe, but you're just a kid.

Isn't it past your bedtime?

 

[Cyrus]

Maybe, but you're just a kid.

Well, honestly. Closing down Gitmo was a stupid move because he had no idea where to move them, and no one in the United States wants them in their town (Because of irrational fear that it will invite attacks in their city - oh brother). If he was smart, he would put all the GITMO crew in a state that never votes democratic.

As for credibility around the world...ehhh...no. He increased the popularity of the name brand USA, but realistically the Chinese are doing their own thing and giving him a hard time. He doesn't have the pull to keep them in check. When he visited Russia, no one cheered for him, it was only quiet silence in the crowd because they were suspicious of him.

For his healthcare reform, we will have to see what actually gets passed before making any claims. The point here is that everyone: republican and democrat: know that reform has to occur because the current system is not self-sustainable. The only question is how the reform will look like.

 

[OmCheeto]

How could anyone be unhappy with Obama?

Because they want to.

A very dear old friend of mine, who must be in her 80's by now, sent me emails about once a month regarding Obama. They were all the typical slanderous types that people receive and just forward, nodding their heads, and going "Yah! Everyone should know the truth!". I put up with them until she sent me the one about the Cook County jail. Now this was probably a mistake on my part, as I've not received any emails from her since, but I responded to her, and all of her 15 friends that she'd cc'd, that her story was false.

So what's my point? Like I said, people want to be unhappy with him. They want to believe the lies. And I find most of the real arguments against Obama to be trivial, or worse yet, simple name calling.

But I think all the garbage emails about him prove one thing: If they have to resort to lies to make him look bad, then the kid must be doing a pretty good job.

 

[Sorry!]

Because they want to.

A very dear old friend of mine, who must be in her 80's by now, sent me emails about once a month regarding Obama. They were all the typical slanderous types that people receive and just forward, nodding their heads, and going "Yah! Everyone should know the truth!". I put up with them until she sent me the one about the Cook County jail. Now this was probably a mistake on my part, as I've not received any emails from her since, but I responded to her, and all of her 15 friends that she'd cc'd, that her story was false.

So what's my point? Like I said, people want to be unhappy with him. They want to believe the lies. And I find most of the real arguments against Obama to be trivial, or worse yet, simple name calling.

But I think all the garbage emails about him prove one thing: If they have to resort to lies to make him look bad, then the kid must be doing a pretty good job.

I remember watching this, it was probably off a link from PF. I sure hope that this represents a small fraction of Americans because it's kind of sickening. There may be legit reasons to dislike Obama and I'm certain that some people truly do not support Obama because ofwhat he's done so far. These types of people/tactics just make the position seem rediculous though, in my opinion.

I'll tell you all why I support Obama: He's very handsome and I would love to make love with him.

 

[Nebula815]

Why support Obama? How could anyone be unhappy with Obama? The guy is amazing!

Officially banned the use of torture

This I think is nonsense. Believe you me, if the scenario ever occurs where they need to torture the guy to get information or NYC or DC are going up in a nuclear fireball possibly, they're going to torture him.

Closing Gitmo

Stupid move IMO.

Reestablishing the credibility of the US around the globe [as did we by electing him!]

You mean maybe popularity. The U.S. was plenty credible already. We are losing our financial credibility right now though, Moody's has said they may have to consider downgrading the value of our bonds.

Recall that he was a superstar even among global leaders!. Amazing! Even they can see that Obama is a once-in-a-lifetime leader.

You judge a leader based on whether they are a "superstar?"

Reacted forcefully and quickly to intervene in the meltdown of the US economy.

That was under George W. Bush. Barack Obama just enacted a stimulus, which no one knows if it has worked yet.

Renewed long-term effort to ban all nuclear weapons

This is a Left-wing pipedream that will never happen and is IMO silly to pursue right now. No one is engaging in a nuclear arms race now. If the Russians want to try this again, go ahead, we'll bankrupt them and send them back to where they were in 1990.

He needs to focus more on stopping Iran IMO with this.

Very likely to get 90% or more of what he wanted for health care reform. Presidents have been trying for seventy years. This alone is enough to mark his place in history as one of the greats.

Or one of the worsts. This healthcare "reform" bill has nothing to do with helping people, it has to do with the Democrats seizing a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to grab control over a sixth of the economy.

The bill is longer than War and Peace and no one knows exactly what is in it, except a variety of new commissions, regulatory agencies, and so forth.

You don't try to reform a sixth of the economy in one fell swoop. There are much cheaper and simpler ways to increase access to healthcare for people, but those are too free-market, and the Democrats do not want free-market. They need to pass this bill (which may be un-Constitutional in certain respects), so they can then hopefully pass a "public option" later on, which then makes the way for single-payer.

It always gets me how every Leftist (not saying you are a Leftist, I just mean in general) cheers for Barack Obama's attempt at health reform to expand coverage, but no one cheered for when George W. Bush enacted the (at the time) largest government intrusion into healthcare in decades with his $400 billion expansion of Medicare.

The Left like big-government, one would think they would have loved that.

And yes, the Republicans could have passed a lot of the health reforms they are saying should be done now when they had control of the Congress and the Executive, so yes they screwed the pooch on that one.

Has shown steady resolve in his treatment of Afghanistan. Has used force where possible against terrorist camps in Pakistan, as he said that he would.

On this, he is doing good I think.

In spite of the fact that many economists argued that, in order to save them, Obama would have to nationalize the banks, he refused to do so; making it clear even to a lunatic that the claims that Obama is a "socialist" are lunatic. He had the perfect opportunity to seize power at the financial heart of the nation, but he didn't. Of course, even that isn't enough to change the minds of his detractors. Instead they cry about, essentially, how he saved the economy.

He is a European-style social democrat, which is still very far to the Left, and very bad for this country IMO. We are not Europe nor should we want to be Europe.

He angers the fringe on the right and the left because he is operating in the middle.

Depends on how one defines "middle." To a socialist, they might say he is operating in the middle, as he is not Left enough for them. To a center-left person for whom center-left is the middle, he is a middle person. I'd say he is operating to the far center-left.

He is smart, skilled, calm, and calculating.

Yes.

He is dedicated to the right side of the right issues and he stays focused. While he is human and will make mistakes, and he has, so far he is as close to being the ideal President as any I have seen in my lifetime. Thank God that great men appear in times of great crisis.

He is dedicated to what he views are the right issues. But that doesn't make them right. We will have to see how he handles the finances of the country, and its security, long-term, before we make any full judgements I'd say.

 

[mheslep]

1b. Release them to the US. Um, no.

Why not? give them a temporary VISA and release them in the US. If they commit a crime, charge and arrest them, if they overstay their VISA, deport them.

Yes Traker is on to something here. I suggest the authorities release Gitmo folk directly into Traker's protective custody, actually have them travel only while in said company. Then if a former Gitmo resident commits a crime, after charging and arresting them, we will also be able to announce that the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_Napolitano#.22The_system_worked.22_Controversy"[/I]

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Treating terrorism like a law enforcement issue is what got us to 9/11 in the first place. Non-state, illegal combatants are not to be treated as criminals. If civilian court trials are held, it can lead to the release of classified information on how they were captured (that is what happened with the WTC bombers) and also mean soldiers in the battlefield may have to treat certain terrorists as criminals.

An illegal combatant is a criminal.

According to the GC all persons who are captured in war are to be treated with due care as described in its provisions until such time as they have gone before a tribunal and been determined to be either a legal prisoner of war or otherwise. If they are determined to be criminals then they may be treated and tried as such under the laws of the detaining party.

Guantanamo Bay was being used as a means of keeping at arms length the legal problems of the Bush Admin not wishing to treat the prisoners as prescribed by law attempting to keep them perpetually in a supposed gray area between criminal and combatant. Obama closing the detention facility and bringing the prisoners here will hopefully force the US to properly dispose the matter. Some people find keeping these persons here and treating them with due care to be distasteful. Keeping them in a facility off US soil without any proper legal status is even more distasteful, only we citizens can easily not concern ourselves with it that way.



To the OP in general I would say that I like Obama. I do not think he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I disagree with him on some issues which I believe any adult should realize is going to happen with anyone, we don't get to build our own president and live in our own perfect world without regard for the needs and wishes of the rest of our countrymen. I believe that Obama is doing a good job. He has not made any major mistakes of which I am aware. He is, in my opinion, doing at least as good a job as I could possibly conceive of McCain doing and with the added benefit that I actually agree with Obama much more than could I agree with McCain. It may be just a personal opinion but I perceive Obama as being much more intelligent and respectable an individual than McCain. I believe that he represents the US well.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

It always gets me how every Leftist (not saying you are a Leftist, I just mean in general) cheers for Barack Obama's attempt at health reform to expand coverage, but no one cheered for when George W. Bush enacted the (at the time) largest government intrusion into healthcare in decades with his $400 billion expansion of Medicare.

Similarly I was rolling my eyes at the Liberals booing the Bush Admin's push for an amnesty bill knowing full well that it had nothing to do with anything but it being done by Bush. Now that Obama is doing it it is a great idea of course.

 

[Nebula815]

An illegal combatant is a criminal.

According to the GC all persons who are captured in war are to be treated with due care as described in its provisions until such time as they have gone before a tribunal and been determined to be either a legal prisoner of war or otherwise. If they are determined to be criminals then they may be treated and tried as such under the laws of the detaining party.

The GC apply to uniformed soldiers fighting in a declared war though, not to illegal combatants who are not fighting in a declared war, and who even if they were, violated the rules of war, thus meaning the GC do not apply to them.

Some people find keeping these persons here and treating them with due care to be distasteful. Keeping them in a facility off US soil without any proper legal status is even more distasteful, only we citizens can easily not concern ourselves with it that way.

I wouldn't say so. They are illegal enemy combatants. No one forced them to take up arms against the United States. Gitmo's purpose is to keep them out of combat for the duration of the war.

 

[Nebula815]

Similarly I was rolling my eyes at the Liberals booing the Bush Admin's push for an amnesty bill knowing full well that it had nothing to do with anything but it being done by Bush. Now that Obama is doing it it is a great idea of course.

Yup.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

The GC apply to uniformed soldiers fighting in a declared war though, not to illegal combatants who are not fighting in a declared war, and who even if they were, violated the rules of war, thus meaning the GC do not apply to them.



I wouldn't say so. They are illegal enemy combatants. No one forced them to take up arms against the United States. Gitmo's purpose is to keep them out of combat for the duration of the war.

There are a few discussions regarding this already. They get rather long and involved. I'll only say that if you read the GC [Part I, Article 5] it seems(since I am no expert I will only use 'seems') to clearly indicate that all prisoners receive the prescribed treatment for POWs until their cases are properly disposed by a tribunal.

 

[Nebula815]

On a side note, from what I know of Gitmo, it gives the prisoners basically POW treatment. The International Red Cross is there, they get three meals a day, medical care, prayer time, etc...

 

[mheslep]

Guantanamo is not being closed in any meaningful sense, instead its geography and name is changing to http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/mos...tanamos-evil-twin-Britains-dirty-secret.html".

 

[Trakar]

You would want to just release terrorists into the civilian population of the U.S.?

Sorry, I must have missed where the evidence against these people was put before and a jury of peers, argued and weighed, and found to compellingly have indicated their guilt in the crimes of which our government has accused them? As far as I know, they are suspects in a serious set of crimes, and I fear that the government may have so tainted the evidence and mishandled the prosecution of these suspects that clean and clear prosecutions on the original charged offenses may be impossible, and "time served" may in some cases prove inadequate recompense for some counter-claims of personal injuries and damages committed by criminal actions involved with US detention.

Yes it is. It takes the terrorists off of the battlefield and thus keeps them from harming anyone. The United States is ready to end the War on Terror tomorrow if the terrorists want. They're the ones who keep trying to attack us.

and you know these people to be terrorists because,...?

(hint - if they are found anywhere near a "battlefield" they aren't, by definition, "terrorists." Some of these might be "enemy combatants," or "resistance" fighters, or taxicab drivers and farmers in the wrong place at the wrong time, or someone who said something bad about someone who had the ear of a local police officer, or US informant. Ultimately, until all of the evidence is dispassionately evaluated and each case is carefully analysed we don't even know that all of the people labelled enemy combatants actually are such. Battlefield precautions dictate that one apply enthusiastic prejudice when it comes to any such classifications, better to be overly cautious than blown up or shot by someone you released yesterday because you weren't sure who they were or what their intentions were. Lock them up and treat them like a fanatic enemy for eight years and you have probably turned them into such even if they weren't such when you took custody of them. However, making someone hate you, does not justify your continued imprisonment of them.)

Treating terrorism like a law enforcement issue is what got us to 9/11 in the first place. Non-state, illegal combatants are not to be treated as criminals. If civilian court trials are held, it can lead to the release of classified information on how they were captured (that is what happened with the WTC bombers) and also mean soldiers in the battlefield may have to treat certain terrorists as criminals.

No, the failure to continue to treat terrorism as a top priority national and international legal and diplomatic issue is what led to 9/11. The pumping of hundreds of billions of dollars annually into the bank accounts of politically and ideologically radical royal families and not applying appropriate economic and diplomatic pressure toward reform among the nations ruled by such despots, is what got us to 9/11. Force begats force, mistreatment and hypocrisy only result in lowering the bar and admitting defeat. Repeating the same mistakes expecting different results is both insanity and suicidal. If you don't like what America stands for, you are free to leave, but I've sworn to defend the US Constitution and what it stands for against all enemies foriegn and domestic, and that is an oath I take seriously and have never been relieved from, and right now, you are starting to sound like an "enemy combatant" to me.

 

[Nebula815]

Sorry, I must have missed where the evidence against these people was put before and a jury of peers, argued and weighed, and found to compellingly have indicated their guilt in the crimes of which our government has accused them? As far as I know, they are suspects in a serious set of crimes, and I fear that the government may have so tainted the evidence and mishandled the prosecution of these suspects that clean and clear prosecutions on the original charged offenses may be impossible, and "time served" may in some cases prove inadequate recompense for some counter-claims of personal injuries and damages committed by criminal actions involved with US detention.

You are talking as if they common criminals. They aren't. And the government was extremely cautious in its handling of these terrorists at Gitmo, to the point of being hamstrung to a good degree.

and you know these people to be terrorists because,...?

They don't just throw random people into Gitmo.

Battlefield precautions dictate that one apply enthusiastic prejudice when it comes to any such classifications, better to be overly cautious than blown up or shot by someone you released yesterday because you weren't sure who they were or what their intentions were.

Which is hwy we have Gitmo.

Lock them up and treat them like a fanatic enemy for eight years and you have probably turned them into such even if they weren't such when you took custody of them. However, making someone hate you, does not justify your continued imprisonment of them.)

They are not treated like a fanatic enemy, they are simply kept off of the battlefield so they do not kill more Americans.

No, the failure to continue to treat terrorism as a top priority national and international legal and diplomatic issue is what led to 9/11. The pumping of hundreds of billions of dollars annually into the bank accounts of politically and ideologically radical royal families and not applying appropriate economic and diplomatic pressure toward reform among the nations ruled by such despots, is what got us to 9/11.

None of this would have worked against Afghanistan, which is what led to 9/11.

Force begats force, mistreatment and hypocrisy only result in lowering the bar and admitting defeat.

We do not mistreat captured terrorists.

Repeating the same mistakes expecting different results is both insanity and suicidal.

Yup.

If you don't like what America stands for, you are free to leave, but I've sworn to defend the US Constitution and what it stands for against all enemies foriegn and domestic, and that is an oath I take seriously and have never been relieved from, and right now, you are starting to sound like an "enemy combatant" to me.

Sounding a bit self-righteous here IMO. You are entitled to your opinion, but not everyone believes the U.S. Constitution applies to these terrorists.

 

[Trakar]

No it does not. There is a HUGE difference between holding non-state, illegal enemy combatants who are not entitled to Geneva Convention rights or the U.S. Constitution in a place like Guantanomo Bay because they have decided to repeatedly attempt to commit acts of war against the nation, and a government literally just infringing on the rights and freedoms of its people in the name of power.

The Geneva convention applies to the signatory governments and their agencies (military aspects), it governs their responsibilities and binds their actions, much the same way our constitution outlines and binds the actions of our national government. The US Constitution covers how the US government and its agents may act with regards to citizens (domestic and foriegn), suspects in crimes (regardless of nationality or citizenship) and persons in general. The Constitution doesn't apply to people, it applies to our government. The Geneva conventions were established along greatly similar guidelines, they are agreements and guarantees among the signatory nations. It doesn't matter if the people affected are from signatory nations, what matters is the international accord that these nations will respond with, at the least, the minimal treatments and requirements all individuals which its military forces interact with; non-combatant civilian, combatants, neutral or involved third parties, and the distinctions between internaional and non-international conflict (especially with the three subsequent and applicable protocols).

 

[Trakar]

I take a completely opposite view of him so far. I think a lot of these points are still muddy at best.

Fully Agreed! "...muddy at best", and that is being generous, from my perspective.

 

[Trakar]

Yes Traker is on to something here. I suggest the authorities release Gitmo folk directly into Traker's protective custody, actually have them travel only while in said company. Then if a former Gitmo resident commits a crime, after charging and arresting them, we will also be able to announce that the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_Napolitano#.22The_system_worked.22_Controversy"[/I]

The only thing that would keep former Guantánamo detainees from boarding and blowing up a plane, is the same thing currently keeping everyone else from boarding and blowing up planes. If you worried about flying, keeping these people in Guantánamo doesn't seem to be stopping people from trying to blow up planes. If you are just nominating me to receive several hundred thousand a year and a government pension to serve as a former Gitmo detainee probation officer, we'd have to talk about the details but, I wouldn't rule out the opportunity out of hand.

 

[mheslep]

There are a few discussions regarding this already. They get rather long and involved. I'll only say that if you read the GC [Part I, Article 5] it seems(since I am no expert I will only use 'seems') to clearly indicate that all prisoners receive the prescribed treatment for POWs until their cases are properly disposed by a tribunal.

I am also no expert (still), and I https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=317159&highlight=geneva&page=2".

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/WebART/375-590007?OpenDocument"still 'seems' to exclude coverage of most of the detainees. I also think it likely that we both agree, if the GC does apply, that at most the Gitmo crowd is only entitled to a military "tribunal" in place, not "a jury of peers, argued and weighed" ala a Constitution Art III court.

 

[Evo]

This thread has seriously gone off topic. Locked.