What evidence supports Bin Laden's involvement in the 9/11 attacks?

[edward]

This documentary was repeated on the History Chanel last night. Most of it is available on youtube. A must see.

We put too much trust in the Afghan's. Franks and Rumsfeld refused to commit American troops. We could have wrapped up Afghanistan at Tora Bora.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaZ82J0VX2E&feature=related

 

[aquitaine]

I think we're going for the "let's let him keep wondering around somewhere and hopefully die of old age soon" option.

 

[edward]

This link has all ten videos in sequence.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=0F205F00D0FB6210

120 minutes
History Channel US
Director: Steve Webb
Executive Producer: Denman Rooke

In a two-hour special, 10 Ways To Kill bin Laden speaks to the people tasked with the job of hunting down and killing the world's most wanted man. From the CIA planners to the special forces operatives on the ground, using extensive reconstructions, CGI, rarely-seen archive and compelling first hand testimony, this is the definitive account of one of the most determined covert operations every carried out by the US military machine.

http://www.octoberfilms.co.uk/productions.php?category=history

 

[mheslep]

... We could have wrapped up Afghanistan at Tora Bora.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaZ82J0VX2E&feature=related

The premise of that comment seems to be that if Bin Laden, a few of his Lieutenants and maybe the Taliban's Mullah Omar were killed or captured at Tora Bora then Afghanistan is somehow 'wrapped up', yes?

Currently the plan in Afghanistan something like: fight the insurgency so that the country can stabilize itself sufficiently so that the Taliban can't or won't allow AQ or AQ like jihadists to plan, recruit, and train there again. Because otherwise another twenty maniacs can plan, recruit and train to fly airplanes into buildings there with encouragement from the local government.

 

[edward]

The premise of that comment seems to be that if Bin Laden, a few of his Lieutenants and maybe the Taliban's Mullah Omar were killed or captured at Tora Bora then Afghanistan is somehow 'wrapped up', yes?

Currently the plan in Afghanistan something like: fight the insurgency so that the country can stabilize itself sufficiently so that the Taliban can't or won't allow AQ or AQ like jihadists to plan, recruit, and train there again. Because otherwise another twenty maniacs can plan, recruit and train to fly airplanes into buildings there with encouragement from the local government.

According to the documentary we had only 100 Delta force troops at Tora Bora. We weren't fighting the Taliban we were fighting AQ. There was no significant Taliban presence.


From my point of view, had we had sufficient forces there would have been no insurgency. The link below backs up my point. It also leads to a document written by Army historians

As a result, battalions with 800 soldiers were trying to secure provinces the size of Vermont. “Coalition forces remained thinly spread across Afghanistan,” the historians write. “Much of the country remained vulnerable to enemy forces increasingly willing to reassert their power.”

That early and undermanned effort to use counterinsurgency is one of several examples of how American forces, hamstrung by inadequate resources, missed opportunities to stabilize Afghanistan during the early years of the war, according to the history, “A Different Kind of War.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/31/world/asia/31history.html?_r=1

 

[mheslep]

According to the documentary we had only 100 Delta force troops at Tora Bora. We weren't fighting the Taliban we were fighting AQ. There was no significant Taliban presence.

So? What does that have to do with asserting that the US* could have "wrapped up Afghanistan at Tora Bora"

* there were ~only US forces in country in the Tora Bora battle time frame.

 

[edward]

So? What does that have to do with asserting that the US* could have "wrapped up Afghanistan at Tora Bora"

* there were ~only US forces in country in the Tora Bora battle time frame.

There were more than 100 in the country of course, but only 100 anywhere near Tora Bora.

If we would have had sufficient forces during the Tora Bora time frame we would have still had them later to control the country.

During and immediately after Tora Bora was the key time to take control of the country. We never did have sufficient forces in Afghanistan to control or prevent the upcoming insurgency.

Note: This quote is from the from a document written by military historians all 422 pages of it.

That early and undermanned effort to use counterinsurgency is one of several examples of how American forces, hamstrung by inadequate resources, missed opportunities to stabilize Afghanistan during the early years of the war, according to the history, “A Different Kind of War."

A Different Kind of War is the title of the document written by military historians.

The Quote and the entire document is available through the NY Times link above.

 

[mheslep]

There were more than 100 in the country of course, but only 100 anywhere near Tora Bora.

If we would have had sufficient forces during the Tora Bora time frame we would have still had them later to control the country.

During and immediately after Tora Bora was the key time to take control of the country. We never did have sufficient forces in Afghanistan to control or prevent the upcoming insurgency.

So you suggest the US should have gone into Afghanistan with the current ~90,000 troops (NATO + US) back in 2001, almost immediately?

 

[edward]

So you suggest the US should have gone into Afghanistan with the current ~90,000 troops (NATO + US) back in 2001, almost immediately?

Not necessarily 90,000, that is your number, but certainly more troops than were present when we really needed them. The links and quotes bear it out.

 

[Alfi]

I suggest that we proclaim him dead and gone.

Let anyone prove us wrong, and then focus on those leads. :)

 

[Proton Soup]

seems unlikely to me that bin Laden is the objective. it's not as if capturing him would make any difference at this point.

 

[ZQrn]

I still haven't seen any extremely compelling evidence that linked Bin Laden to 9/11, certainly not which warrants execution without trial.

 

[edward]

seems unlikely to me that bin Laden is the objective. it's not as if capturing him would make any difference at this point.

That is true. I posted the videos of the documentary at this point in time because they only now became available. After watching the video's I was a bit shocked. It was apparent that poor planning was the reason we had bungled catching bin laden and pacifying Afghanistan from the beginning.

The most common complaint from both military and CIA operatives was that they didn't have enough man power. (post 7) The other complaint was that the Afghan fighters did not do their job. (In the video) Both are true.

During the fighting at Tora Bora, the Afghans would go back and sleep with their wives at night. They would come back in the morning and try to regain the ground that they had lost overnight. This information came from the former CIA operative in charge at Tora Bora.

This would all be an historical moot point except for the fact that we are still there.

 

[Proton Soup]

That is true. I posted the videos of the documentary at this point in time because they only now became available. After watching the video's I was a bit shocked. It was apparent that poor planning was the reason we had bungled catching bin laden and pacifying Afghanistan from the beginning.

The most common complaint from both military and CIA operatives was that they didn't have enough man power. (post 7) The other complaint was that the Afghan fighters did not do their job. (In the video) Both are true.

During the fighting at Tora Bora, the Afghans would go back and sleep with their wives at night. They would come back in the morning and try to regain the ground that they had lost overnight. This information came from the former CIA operative in charge at Tora Bora.

This would all be an historical moot point except for the fact that we are still there.

yeah, it all seems rather ludicrous, doesn't it? if bin Laden really was responsible for an attack on US soil (and a rather huge one, at that), doesn't it make sense that we would do everything in our power to bring him and his cronies down? so what that you're short on manpower? you can stretch resources in other areas and do what needs to be done to take down public enemy #1. sleeping with their wives at night is hilarious. it sounds like that old Looney Toons cartoon where the wolf and the sheepdog punch their timecards before going to battle each day.

 

[mheslep]

yeah, it all seems rather ludicrous, doesn't it? if bin Laden really was responsible for an attack on US soil (and a rather huge one, at that), doesn't it make sense that we would do everything in our power to bring him and his cronies down? so what that you're short on manpower? [...]

The US was not short on manpower upon entering Afghanistan.

 

[DaveC426913]

I still haven't seen any extremely compelling evidence that linked Bin Laden to 9/11, certainly not which warrants execution without trial.

Wasn't there a video he released claiming it had been more successful than even he had expected? It was tantamount to a confession of responsibility.

[edit] Sorry, you were looking for evidence that would stand up in a court; I had thought you were just looking for evidence to point the finger at him as opposed to some unrelated group.[/edit]

 

[ZQrn]

Wasn't there a video he released claiming it had been more successful than even he had expected? It was tantamount to a confession of responsibility.

[edit] Sorry, you were looking for evidence that would stand up in a court; I had thought you were just looking for evidence to point the finger at him as opposed to some unrelated group.[/edit]

Yeah, it could be anyone in those vids really, and the person in those vids hardly looks like him, and apparently, Bin Laden is left handed...

Also, why would he record these things in extremely low fidelity in some random cave? The guy's a ridiculously rich oil shaikh, you think he could afford some better quality camera? But then again, it does feed the perception of these people as basically barbarians without civilization.

"We know he's guilty, turn him over"

 

[madness]

Yeah, it could be anyone in those vids really, and the person in those vids hardly looks like him, and apparently, Bin Laden is left handed...

Also, why would he record these things in extremely low fidelity in some random cave? The guy's a ridiculously rich oil shaikh, you think he could afford some better quality camera? But then again, it does feed the perception of these people as basically barbarians without civilization.

"We know he's guilty, turn him over"

I'd be careful here, one of the Stasi here at PF gave me an infraction for asking what the evidence was for bin Laden's guilt.

Dear madness,

You have received an infraction at Physics Forums.

Reason: Trolling/conspiracy theory
-------
Another user made a good point about the logical impossibility of being willfully ignorant. Though I do believe it is possible, your level of willful ignorance is not possible. It is not possible for you to have no knowledge of the evidence whatsoever

 

[ZQrn]

I'd be careful here, one of the Stasi here at PF gave me an infraction for asking what the evidence was for bin Laden's guilt.

Ahahaha.

I'm not very impressed with the moderators here, they seem to mainly abuse their power to further their political position (Yeah I'm looking at you Evo and Watters, still making ad-hominems because you can't stand the heat?) Apparently this is Watters idea of 'high quality posts', such as blatant ignorance about the international law about warfare and martial law.

The 'evidence' are a bunch of recordings which could have been anyone really, the rest is supposedly classified.

 

[DaveC426913]

I'm not very impressed with the moderators here, they seem to mainly abuse their power to further their political position (Yeah I'm looking at you Evo and Watters, still making ad-hominems because you can't stand the heat?) Apparently this is Watters idea of 'high quality posts', such as blatant ignorance about the international law about warfare and martial law.

You explicitly agreed to the forum rules when you signed up. Those forum rules explicitly declare conspiracy theories about Bin Laden as off-limits.

The moderators are doing nothing more than enforcing the rules we all follow and that you agreed to.

 

[ZQrn]

You are needlessly verbose in expressing your displeasure.

A gentleman's courtesy of course, some'd call it 'constructive criticism'.

Simply not returning to PF would accomplish your goal and we'd get the hint.

You see to much what you want to see from too little info if you interpret any user not returning as that.

 

[DaveC426913]

A gentleman's courtesy of course, some'd call it 'constructive criticism'.

You see to much what you want to see from too little info if you interpret any user not returning as that.

I have retracted the weaker argument and replaced it with the stronger one.

 

[ZQrn]

The moderators are doing nothing more than enforcing the rules we all follow and that you agreed to.

No they don't, they essentially make it up as they go along. Which the rules says they can do, the rules say they can ban or lock for any reason they see fit. (Putting up such a rule indicates that they are either not interested in doing a good job and listening, or had various complaints in the past)

However, the rules also don't state that I can't say they do a bad job.

It doesn't say at any point in the rules that you can't ask for evidence pertaining Osama's guilt, or that you can't open topics to debate what type of men women mainly like.

Edit: To put my case from practice: What they typically do is 'first respond to you, and then say 'Now get back on topic', anyone half capable a moderator ought to know that that is not the way to get it back on topic, the best way is to not respond to the issue and just say 'Okay, let's get back on topic, if you want to continue this debate, open a new one or take it to PM!', if you respond to some of those off topic issues and then say 'let's get back on topic' or lock it, you entice a response as you leave a view points dangling that some users might like to respond to. It also gives users the idea you abuse power to get the last word. The best way is to not respond and simply say 'Okay, let's get back on topic now.'

 

[DaveC426913]

No they don't, they essentially make it up as they go along. Which the rules says they can do, the rules say they can ban or lock for any reason they see fit. (Putting up such a rule indicates that they are either not interested in doing a good job and listening, or had various complaints in the past)

However, the rules also don't state that I can't say they do a bad job.

It doesn't say at any point in the rules that you can't ask for evidence pertaining Osama's guilt, or that you can't open topics to debate what type of men women mainly like.

The rules are written out. You read them. They explicitly diswallow this particular conspiracy theory. Your claim that they make anything up is belied by the fact that the rules are posted.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=414380
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2269439#post2269439

Note that the Moderators are not responsible for putting up the rules; that is a forum owner/operator decision. The Moderators are simply charged with enforcing them.


You're licking you wounds; I get it. But it's time to man up and stop blaming others when you violate the rules.

 

[ZQrn]

The rules are written out. You read them. They explicitly diswallow this particular conspiracy theory. Your claim that they make anything up is belied by the fact that the rules are posted.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=414380
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2269439#post2269439

Where do they disallow 'this perticular' conspiracy theory? What is 'this conspiracy theory', where were we talkinga bout 'a conspiracy theory'?

THe word 'usama' or 'osama' or 'bin laden' does not occur in that post, it disallows 'conspiracy theories' (vague) and '9/11 conspiracy theories', which is a completely unrelated thing. Saying that the US blew up the towers themselves or that the evidence incriminating bin laden for the act is weak are two unrelated things.

Note that I'm not saying that Osama hasn't done it, I'm just saying that the evidence is weak, the public evidence at the least.

Note that the Moderators are not responsible for putting up the rules; that is a forum owner/operator decision. The Moderators are simply charged with enforcing them.

Which they do badly, they make things up (as did you), I didn't break a single rule when I asked for hard evidence linking Osama to 9/11.

You're licking you wounds; I get it. But it's time to man up and stop blaming others when you violate the rules.

Again, which rule did I violate when I made a topic about what guys women in general like?

 

[DaveC426913]

I am shooting myself in the foot by providing you with a soapbox to vent your hurt feelings.

If you have a complaint about an infraction, there are appropriate channels for appealing. At the very lerast, their is a forum feedback section. Hijacking a thread to air your complaints is not appropriate and will surely garner you more infractions.

Please address your complaints through the appropriate channels.

I am requesting this thread be closed until it can be cleaned up to remove the tangential discussion.

 

[ZQrn]

If you look close enough, I didn't hijack, I placed an on topic post, ANOTHER person hijacked that, I participated, and then you furthered it with my participation indeed. I don't 'appeal', I have no interest in that and can't care.

And you still haven't answered my question (to which I am particularly sceptical that you have the remote capability), but again:

A: What exact rule [citation needed] is broken by asking for hard evidence that links Osama to the 9/11 bombings.
B: What exact rule [citation needed] is broken by opening a topic about what women quote GENERALLY unquote like in males.

And again, look back up, for I didn't start this off topic myself and that's a simple thing you can't deny.

 

[DaveC426913]

If you look close enough, I didn't hijack, I placed an on topic post, ANOTHER person hijacked that, I participated, and then you furthered it with my participation indeed.

In post 19 you launched into a diatribe about the Moderators.

I don't 'appeal', I have no interest in that and can't care.

You care enough to vent your spleen in public. It is self-destructive to vent it in a place where it worsens your case, and while refusing to vent in a place where it might better your case.

And you still haven't answered my question (to which I am particularly sceptical that you have the remote capability)

Excellent. You have turned your insults on me.

This is not how we do things here at PF. There are plenty of fora out there where they cater to your needs.

I am going to bed. This thread will be cleaned up by the morning.

 

[mheslep]

Readily available public disclosure by Bin Laden on the 911 attack:

I say to you, Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to strike the towers. But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression and tyranny of the American/Israeli coalition against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind.
[...]
And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children.
[...]
And it was to these sorts of notions and their like that the British diplomat and others were referring in their lectures at the Royal Institute of International Affairs. [When they pointed out that] for example, al-Qaida spent $500,000 on the event,
[...]
we were given three times the period required to execute the operations - all praise is due to Allah.
[...]
It is the American people and their economy. And for the record, we had agreed with the Commander-General Muhammad Ataa, Allah have mercy on him, that all the operations should be carried out within 20 minutes, before Bush and his administration notice.
[...]

http://english.aljazeera.net/archive/2004/11/200849163336457223.html