What Happens When Atoms Die?

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    Atoms Life
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of atomic stability and the forces that govern electron behavior in atoms. Participants explore questions regarding the forces that keep electrons in orbit around the nucleus and the conditions under which atoms might "die" or change state, touching on topics such as atomic decay, neutron stars, and theoretical models of atomic fate.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants identify the electromagnetic force, specifically the Coulomb force, as responsible for the attraction between protons and electrons, keeping electrons in orbit around the nucleus.
  • Others argue that atoms do not "wear out" in a conventional sense, but can undergo decay due to specific configurations of protons and neutrons in the nucleus.
  • A few participants mention that under extreme conditions, such as in neutron stars or black holes, atoms may cease to exist in their conventional form, transforming into other states of matter.
  • Some theories suggest that protons may decay over extremely long timescales, leading to the eventual disappearance of atoms, while others propose that the universe's expansion could tear atoms apart.
  • There is a discussion about the limitations of classical models in explaining electron behavior, with quantum mechanics providing a framework that prevents electrons from spiraling into the nucleus.
  • One participant emphasizes that the electromagnetic force encompasses more than just the Coulomb force, including other effects that influence atomic structure.
  • Another participant notes that the concept of atomic decay is tied to the balance of protons and neutrons, which can change through weak force interactions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the nature of atomic stability and decay, with no consensus reached on the ultimate fate of atoms or the implications of various forces at play. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the long-term behavior of atoms under different theoretical scenarios.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of atomic behavior and the limitations of classical physics in fully describing electron dynamics. The discussion highlights the need for a nuanced understanding of quantum mechanics and the interplay of fundamental forces.

  • #31
@Malvern
I am not sure where you want to take this.
You seem to be aiming at some sort of model that is a mix of classical and quantum. This will not yield valid results. I don't know what your level of knowledge of QM is but, if you read around it, you will find the answers to most of your questions and objections. btw, the Hydrogen Atom model is quite inadequate for discussing any situation other than an isolated atom or the behaviour of a low pressure gas.

And "deceleration" is normally regarded as acceleration with a negative sign. (see above). Look up Laser Cooling to find out where the released photons go. They must be produced or the temperature would not reduce.
 
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  • #32
sophiecentaur said:
@Malvern
I am not sure where you want to take this.
You seem to be aiming at some sort of model that is a mix of classical and quantum. This will not yield valid results. I don't know what your level of knowledge of QM is but, if you read around it, you will find the answers to most of your questions and objections. btw, the Hydrogen Atom model is quite inadequate for discussing any situation other than an isolated atom or the behaviour of a low pressure gas.

And "deceleration" is normally regarded as acceleration with a negative sign. (see above). Look up Laser Cooling to find out where the released photons go. They must be produced or the temperature would not reduce.

I am just asking questions.
I think that here someone who understands this better than me can answer them.

This is written as cause of cooling when lasers are used

If an atom is traveling toward a laser beam and absorbs a photon from the laser, it will be slowed by the fact that the photon has momentum p = E/c = h/λ.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/optmod/lascool.html

If we don't know what is happening with a single atom, how can be sure, that we know what happens with group of atoms?
Isolated single atom is OK for begining.
 
  • #33
when a thing breaks into 2 than its goes towards 0
 
  • #34
Malverin said:
I am just asking questions.
I think that here someone who understands this better than me can answer them.

There have been a lot of good answers but you do not appear to be accepting them. This is not a topic that will work on your own terms. Pretty much everything you have been told is quite consistent and contains what you need to know. Try reading it all again (and general reading around too) rather than arguing the case for your viewpoint.
 
  • #35
sophiecentaur said:
There have been a lot of good answers but you do not appear to be accepting them. This is not a topic that will work on your own terms. Pretty much everything you have been told is quite consistent and contains what you need to know. Try reading it all again (and general reading around too) rather than arguing the case for your viewpoint.

I am asking for explanation.
If I ask ""Why the Sun is yellow?"

The answer can be "Because everyone can see it is."
That is true, but it won't give me more uderstanding, right?

Of cource I can read, and I have, what QM says about this.

What I need to know is

Why it is so?
What is the cause for this?
 
  • #36
The Sun is said to be yellow because we have rough names for all the colours we perceive. Because of our crude sense of light wavelengths we cannot do spectrometric analyse of the light we see. Colour is a matter of psychophysics and not Physics. You could find out about the tristimulus theory of colour vision and find out how it works. (It is not as simple as you may think.) It will not actually tell you 'why', though, but 'how'.

If you have read about QM and how the basics are derived then you must know that there is no answer to the 'why' question. In fact there is no askable 'why' question in QM. There are only connective relationships between quantities.
You may need to put more personal effort into this, rather than expecting someone else to flick a switch of understanding in your brain at your present state of knowledge. This is usually the way, I'm afraid.
 
  • #37
sophiecentaur said:
The Sun is said to be yellow because we have rough names for all the colours we perceive. Because of our crude sense of light wavelengths we cannot do spectrometric analyse of the light we see. Colour is a matter of psychophysics and not Physics. You could find out about the tristimulus theory of colour vision and find out how it works. (It is not as simple as you may think.) It will not actually tell you 'why', though, but 'how'.

If you have read about QM and how the basics are derived then you must know that there is no answer to the 'why' question. In fact there is no askable 'why' question in QM. There are only connective relationships between quantities.
You may need to put more personal effort into this, rather than expecting someone else to flick a switch of understanding in your brain at your present state of knowledge. This is usually the way, I'm afraid.

Don't ask 'why' . Interesting advice :approve:

Ok, I will read more and hope that understanding will come to me.
Thank you all for your answers and patience.
 
  • #39
sophiecentaur said:
Everyone believes Richard Feinman and here is what he has to say about asking 'why'.

He says, that 'Why?' always brings many other 'whys' with it self.
And your knowledge and understanding, deppends on how many of this 'whys' you can answer.
So 'Why' is maybe the most important question you can ask, because it's answers, expand your knowledge and understanding :approve:
 
Last edited:
  • #40
Oh yes. 'Why' is ok to ask as long as you don't expect a definitive answer.
 
  • #41
≈
Malverin said:
He says, that 'Why?' always brings many other 'whys' with it self.
And your knowledge and understanding, deppends on how many of this 'whys' you can answer.
So 'Why' is maybe the most important question you can ask, because it's answers, expand your knowledge and understanding :approve:

It might be important, but it's not science:
 
Last edited by a moderator:

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