What is containing the Universe?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of what contains the universe, exploring ideas of infinity, the nature of space, and the implications of the Big Bang. Participants engage with both philosophical and scientific perspectives, questioning the definitions and implications of a finite versus infinite universe.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Philosophical

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether nothingness can be considered something and if the universe is infinite.
  • There is a debate about the nature of the Big Bang, with some suggesting it occurred everywhere rather than at a specific point.
  • Participants express difficulty in visualizing the universe's expansion and the concept of it expanding into nothing.
  • Some argue that if the universe is everything, it cannot be contained by anything, while others challenge this notion.
  • There are discussions about the implications of life arising from chemical reactions and whether matter possesses some form of intelligence.
  • Several participants explore the idea of finite versus infinite universes and the philosophical implications of boundaries and edges.
  • Some participants reference analogies, such as the balloon analogy, to explain the universe's expansion, while others critique the limitations of such analogies.
  • There is a suggestion that the universe could be finite yet still encompass everything, raising questions about the nature of boundaries.
  • Some participants propose the existence of other universes or an "ultra-universe," while others emphasize the lack of evidence for such claims.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether the universe is finite or infinite, and multiple competing views remain regarding the implications of these concepts. There is ongoing debate about the nature of boundaries and containment.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about visualizing complex concepts related to the universe's structure and expansion. The discussion includes various assumptions about definitions of finiteness and containment that are not universally agreed upon.

Spin2win
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Hey i was here for my airsoft problemes but while I am waiting...
What is containing the universe? is nothingness somehting? Or is it simply infinite?how is there an infinity of things? and if life is just a chemical raction from matter how with a spark it suddenly has will, would it mean matter has a less noticeable intelligence?
 
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Spin2win said:
What is containing the universe?
The universe is per definition all there is.
 
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Ok thanks so its going forever and ever there is no limit? And when the explosion of the big bang happenned where did it happen? In some place that is also part of the universe?
 
Spin2win said:
Ok thanks so its going forever and ever there is no limit? And when the explosion of the big bang happenned where did it happen? In some place that is also part of the universe?
The name and popular description give the wrong idea. It wasn't like an explosion that happened at a particular place and expanded from there. Sing the universe is all there is, its start had to happen everywhere. Unfortunately this is difficult to visualize without analogies, such as an expanding load of rasin bread or the surface of an expanding balloon. But these of course have limitations.
 
Ok i picture it better now.thanks. Still hard to imagine it expend into nothing.like the balloon needs space to expend into no? .Would be easier to understand if it was like : "at the moment of the big bang everything was together and then everything started to shrink very fast".but still, that everything is contained by something otherwise even if expending or shrinking things would still be glue together no?
 
Spin2win said:
everything is contained by something
'taint necessarily so.
 
Spin2win said:
Ok i picture it better now.thanks. Still hard to imagine it expend into nothing.like the balloon needs space to expend into no?
That's the limitation of the analogy. The balloon analogy works fine mathematically, but when we picture it in our minds its expanding into already existing space, and that's not how it works.
 
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Spin2win said:
everything is contained by something
Not if the thing is everything per definition.
 
Spin2win said:
if life is just a chemical raction from matter how with a spark it suddenly has will, would it mean matter has a less noticeable intelligence?

Without straying towards the philosophical, yes life is just a certain chemistry, biochemistry. The biochemistry in bacteria is different to what goes on in mammalian life. Also the lines are blurred when you bring viruses into the picture. Are they alive or not?There is no ''spark' that has any scientific meaning. By definition 'matter' does not in itself have intelligence. Brains give rise to intelligence and the animal kingdom has a very large range of them.
 
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  • #10
Ok So the universe can create as much space as he wants without "expanding" since its infinite?

Wasnt it a first form of life and from there it evolved into everything we know? , isn't the thing that made the first brain kinda intelligent? I was picturing Frankenstein^^ its dead and after the lightning strikes.. its alive. Or is the matter already alive but we don't notice it because it doesn't move or evolve?
 
  • #11
Spin2win said:
Ok So the universe can create as much space as he wants without "expanding" since its infinite?
That is not how it works. Even a finite, closed universe can expand without expanding into anything.
 
  • #12
jbriggs444 said:
That is not how it works. Even a finite, closed universe can expand without expanding into anything.

By shrinking everything?
 
  • #13
I guess as Russ said its impossible to picture it without some advance knowledge?
because I am really strugling
 
  • #14
I could be wrong, but I doubt that anyone really understands these things in the way the OP would like to understand them.
 
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  • #15
Spin2win said:
I guess as Russ said its impossible to picture it without some advance knowledge?
because I am really strugling
What you can picture is a universe of fewer dimensions, but you have to force yourself to only consider the analogy within its constraints.

In the balloon analogy, the only thing in the analogy is the surface of the balloon. It's a 2d representation of 3d space. You have to ignore the space inside and around the balloon: they do not exist.

The surface of a balloon is finite in surface area, but has no boundaries: no edges (and therefore no center). When it expands, it just expands. There is nothing overtaken, it just creates new area in the old area.

The universe is rather like that, but in 3d instead of 2d.
 
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  • #16
So it is creating new space by shrinking everything down? Or is he pulling out new space out of his hat? It really burns me to think that you can add space without either making the whole thing grow or the things we use to observe expension, shrink.
 
  • #17
Also how could something finite be everything there is? I mean doesn't finite means it stops somewhere? How can you know for sure there is nothing outside or inside the balloon?
 
  • #18
How has it no edges if its finite? Like if you add new stuff in a video game even tho it has no boundries no center when you are inside it, the volume of the game will be bigger on your computer. so in some way it is expanding into something no? And my character can't jump out of the screen because there is no screen for him and he will have absolutely no way to find out there is some other place outside his universe. His unique chance might be to realize that if everything there is is finite then it must be contained by something else?
 
  • #19
I think the answer has to be philosophical whenever you talk about the boundary conditions set at the edge of our universe. No one has been there to affirm or deny what is beyond our universe. There could well be an infinite number of other universes like ours. You can call this the ultra-universe. It is a matter of probability: what is the most likely scenario?
 
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  • #20
Spin2win said:
How has it no edges if its finite?
Because "finite" does not mean having edges. Take the surface of a balloon, for instance. It has no edges. But it you cannot walk infinitely far on the surface without coming back to where you started.

If you've ever played a video game where when you walk off the right side of the screen you come in the left (a toroidal topology), that is a finite playing surface with no edges.
 
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  • #21
The thing that's hard to picture is how something finite can be everything there is?
since something finite is by definition contained by something esle
 
  • #22
Spin2win said:
The thing that's hard to picture is how something finite can be everything there is?
since something finite is by definition contained by something esle
Show us the definition of finite that makes that claim true "by definition".
 
  • #23
Well isn't something finite supposed to have boundaries? And isn't crossing boundaries the start of something else?
 
  • #24
Spin2win said:
How has it no edges if its finite?
This is not that unusual of a property. Pretty much any normal smooth closed shape has it. We kind of laugh at aboriginal cultures that talk about the edge of the world. The world is a finite shape with no edge. You are thinking about the universe in the incorrect aboriginal way.
 
  • #25
In a video game the universe is finite and has no boundaries because it doesn't really exist.

I tought edges and boundaries were the same thing^^
 
  • #26
So, unless our universe is infinite it is contained by something, right?
 
  • #27
Spin2win said:
So unless our universe is infinite it is contained by something, right?
No. We have no physical evidence that the universe is contained by something nor any theoretical reason to propose such a container.
 
  • #28
So the universe is infinite? How is something finite not contained by anything?
 
  • #29
Spin2win said:
So it is creating new space by shrinking everything down?
I'm not really following: when you pull on a rubber band or blow up a balloon, what is shrinking?
Well isn't something finite supposed to have boundaries?
No. Again, if you walk/drive/fly in any direction on Earth, you never fall off an edge/boundary, do you?
I tought edges and boundaries were the same thing^^
They are.
So the universe is infinite?
Unknown. It might be, but it doesn't have to be.
How is something finite not contained by anything?
You are assuming it is contained by (in) something. Try assuming it isn't. There is no reason it has to be and no evidence it is.
 
  • #30
Spin2win said:
So the universe is infinite?
That is the best current estimate, although a very large but finite universe is also within the margin of error.

Spin2win said:
How is something finite not contained by anything?
What does one thing have to do with the other?
 

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