B What is containing the Universe?

[Spin2win]

How can you go toward any infinity if you are not infinite yourself?

 

[jbriggs444]

How can you go toward any infinity if you are not infinite yourself?

Start walking.

 

[Herman Trivilino]

Its just that from your perspective the only thing that exist is the rubber but how does it make it the only thing there is?

It's a model created in your mind, so you can make it be anything you want. It's only utility is that it can be used to describe the way Nature behaves.

I could imagine it if you didnt run in circle.you would just go on forever and tell yourself that's probably the only thing there is unless i am being "contained" in another universe that could create a virtual infinite universe

You can construct a model that contains all your fantasies, but if it doesn't describe Nature's behavior it's not physics.

 

[Spin2win]

Isnt running in circles in the "universe" supposed to make you understand that its not all there is? the only way to not be contained without being infinite would be to be a simulation but you d be contained by the real world.
And if you are not running in circles because points shrink to infinity how can the universe be infinite if its not infinite?

 

[weirdoguy]

The only way to not be contained without being infinite is to be a simulation

That's ridiculous. Learn some proper maths and everything will be clear. There is no need for any containment, you can define manifolds abstractly. Read about it.

 

[Spin2win]

Then it has to be infinite right?

 

[weirdoguy]

No, as been said over and over again.

 

[Spin2win]

But how something not infinite be everything there is?

 

[weirdoguy]

Simply it can because there is no scientific (mathematical nor physical) reason it can't. It being hard for you to imagine means nothing. Read about manifolds and how can they be defined without them being contained in anything else.

 

[fresh_42]

But how something not infinite be everything there is?

That's ridiculous. Learn some proper maths and everything will be clear. There is no need for any containment, you can define manifolds abstractly. Read about it.

The surface of the Earth is finite and everything there is for us. Please do a little research on your questions. Wikipedia is a good source to answer those fundamental questions. Look up: dimension, manifold, universe, and the links you find therein.

 

[Spin2win]

Its not because its everything there is FOR us that its everyrhing there is no? Are maths going to help me transcand the logic that something finite can't be everything there is? How do you picture it yourself?

 

[jbriggs444]

Are maths going to help me transcand the logic that something finite can't be everything there is?

There is no such logic. You are making it up out of whole cloth to fit your preconceived notions of how things must be.

 

[fresh_42]

Its not because its everything there is FOR us that its everyrhing there is no? Are maths going to help me transcand the logic that something finite can't be everything there is? How do you picture it yourself?

The example of Earth's surface was a 2D example of what spatially is 3D in the universe: You can have a closed three dimensional, finite surface of a four dimensional manifold. Can I imagine it? No. Does math help to imagine it? Maybe, but at least it allows me to calculate with it, and this doesn't require imagination. I do not claim the universe to be the three dimensional surface of a four dimensional sphere, but it cannot be ruled out from the start. Cosmologists try to figure it out, but that's not an easy task, since manifolds aren't "embedded" in something. They are all there is: no outside!

 

[jedishrfu]

Without further ado, I think the thread has run its course and that's its now time to close it. Thank you all for contributing here.

For @Spin2win please research the notions of infinity in math and physics and see if what you have learned in this thread helps you come to grips with what you now know.

Often in math and science, we must go back to the math to understand something and that's usually because it doesn't follow our commonsense or that we simply can't picture it in our minds. However, the math of a theory coupled with experiment is the ultimate arbiter of what is what in the universe as we understand it today.

Here's an article circa 2015 in Universe Today that attempts to describe our understanding of the vastness of the universe.

https://www.universetoday.com/119553/is-the-universe-finite-or-infinite/

Jedi