What is De-Broglie's interpretation and how does it relate to DBB theory?

[bohm2]

The main thing is he is only talking about single particle theory, so $v$ and $\psi$ can be constant multiples of each other, but we can consider $v$ to be in physical space and $\psi$ to be in configuration space. There is no known generalization to multiple particles. In the known generalizations, both $v$ and $\psi$ have to be in configuration space to reproduce quantum mechanics. Both of us initially assumed that liquidspacetime was talking about the general multiple particle case, but it seems he is only talking about the single particle case.

Yes, and that's why Maudlin argued that once you involve multiple particles it won't deliver the goods:

What the oil-drop experiments provide is a tangible partial analog of the pilot-wave picture, but restricted to single-particle phenomena (that is, this sort of experiment cannot reproduce the sort of phenomena that depend on entanglement). That is because only in the case of a single particle does the wave function have the same mathematical form (a scalar function over space) as do the waves in the oil. Once two particles are involved, the fact that the wave function is defined over the configuration space of the system rather than over physical space becomes crucial, and the (partial) analogy to the oil-drops fails...

In the single particle case, where configuration space is just three-dimensional space, there's no difficulty. But as far as I understand, there's no solution in a multiparticle system without bringing in configuration space? And then one is forced to treat the configuration space as "real".

 

[bhobba]

YIn the single particle case, where configuration space is just three-dimensional space, there's no difficulty. But as far as I understand, there's no solution in a multiparticle system without bringing in configuration space? And then one is forced to treat the configuration space as "real".

Like I said De-Broglie may have resolved it in his theory. It's in the textbook mentioned. But I really can't motivate myself to sort it out - it is a very fringe interpretation that's way out of the mainstream.

But Lliquidspacetime may be able to explain it - hopefully with some actual math.

Thanks
Bill

 

[atyy]

Yes, and that's why Maudlin argued that once you involve multiple particles it won't deliver the goods:

In the single particle case, where configuration space is just three-dimensional space, there's no difficulty. But as far as I understand, there's no solution in a multiparticle system without bringing in configuration space? And then one is forced to treat the configuration space as "real".

I think getting the agreement with Bell does not rule out that the wave remains physical, but incorporates superluminal siganalling (violating relativity), which I think is the loophole that Brady and Anderson are trying to use. Obviously in this case, the physical wave cannot be a constant multiple of the statistical wave, since the statistical wave is in configuration space. So it would not be straightforward generalization of de Broglie's theory for one particle. However, I don't know if there is any theory that supplies the correct technical details. A relativity violating theory would be ok, as long as the violation is below experimental resolution (for example, QED on a lattice violates relativity, but should be ok as long as the lattice is very fine).

 

[microsansfil]

They are if they are hidden.

This one is not hidden, but it is in French :

Restatement of the interpretation of the wave mechanic by the double-solution which the author, beginning again his attempts of 1924-1927, tried to develop with the collaboration of several young scientists.

This de Broglie paper explains the reason which led him to this double-solution

Patrick

 

[bhobba]

the physical wave cannot be a constant multiple of the statistical wave, since the statistical wave is in configuration space.

Like I said - that's the 64 million dollar question.

Thanks
Bill

 

[liquidspacetime]

the wave-function is simply a multiple of his wave-function.

And there is a physical wave which guides the particle.

 

[liquidspacetime]

As we know from standard quantum mechanics, the wave function for one particle can be considered a physical wave or a configuration space wave. In the same way, $v$ can be also considered a physical wave, and $\psi$ can be considered a configuration space wave.

In de Broglie's double solution theory the $v$ is always a real wave and the $\psi$ wave is never a physical wave, it is always a fictitious wave.

 

[liquidspacetime]

Yea I see how it can be interpreted differently.

I dug up a copy of his reference and De-Broglie and, interestingly, he did generalise it to many particles.

Yes, he did. And so is John Bush and his team.

 

[liquidspacetime]

It's something like that, but I'm not sure about the part you wrote about interacting and becoming entangled. The main thing is he is only talking about single particle theory, so $v$ and $\psi$ can be constant multiples of each other, but we can consider $v$ to be in physical space and $\psi$ to be in configuration space. There is no known generalization to multiple particles. In the known generalizations, both $v$ and $\psi$ have to be in configuration space to reproduce quantum mechanics. Both of us initially assumed that liquidspacetime was talking about the general multiple particle case, but it seems he is only talking about the single particle case.

NON-LINEAR WAVE MECHANICS
A CAUSAL INTERPRETATION
by
LOUIS DE BROGLIE

Chapter IV. The Wave Mechanics of Systems of Particles

 

[liquidspacetime]

what happens to the physical wave-function residing in physical space.

Q. What happens to flying unicorns residing in physical space?
A. There are no such things as flying unicorns.

There is no such thing as a physical wave-function in de Broglie's double solution theory.

 

[liquidspacetime]

Yes, and that's why Maudlin argued that once you involve multiple particles it won't deliver the goods:

In the single particle case, where configuration space is just three-dimensional space, there's no difficulty. But as far as I understand, there's no solution in a multiparticle system without bringing in configuration space? And then one is forced to treat the configuration space as "real".

de Broglie worked on the multi-particles.

NON-LINEAR WAVE MECHANICS
A CAUSAL INTERPRETATION
by
LOUIS DE BROGLIE

"Chapter IV. The Wave Mechanics of Systems of Particles"

So aren't other's in terms of chaos theory.

http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2014/fluid-systems-quantum-mechanics-0912

"The second advantage is the relatively recent development of chaos theory. http://www.technologyreview.com/article/422809/when-the-butterfly-effect-took-flight/ by MIT’s Edward Lorenz in the 1960s, chaos theory holds that many macroscopic physical systems are so sensitive to initial conditions that, even though they can be described by a deterministic theory, they evolve in unpredictable ways. A weather-system model, for instance, might yield entirely different results if the wind speed at a particular location at a particular time is 10.01 mph or 10.02 mph.

The fluidic pilot-wave system is also chaotic. It’s impossible to measure a bouncing droplet’s position accurately enough to predict its trajectory very far into the future. But in a recent series of papers, Bush, MIT professor of applied mathematics Ruben Rosales, and graduate students Anand Oza and Dan Harris applied their pilot-wave theory to show how chaotic pilot-wave dynamics leads to the quantumlike statistics observed in their experiments."

 

[bhobba]

Yes, he did. And so is John Bush and his team.

Mind detailing how he did it?

Thanks
Bill

 

[liquidspacetime]

Like I said De-Broglie may have resolved it in his theory. It's in the textbook mentioned. But I really can't motivate myself to sort it out - it is a very fringe interpretation that's way out of the mainstream.

But Lliquidspacetime may be able to explain it - hopefully with some actual math.

Thanks
Bill

de Broglie did not resolve the mathematics for either a single particle or multi-particles in terms of the physical wave which guides the particle.

 

[bhobba]

to show how chaotic pilot-wave dynamics leads to the quantumlike statistics observed in their experiments."

Gee I wish I had a dollar every time that has been bought up.

Quantum-like is not QM.

For it to be of any value one needs an actual theory with actual equations showing how QM emerges.

Thanks
Bill

 

[liquidspacetime]

I think getting the agreement with Bell does not rule out that the wave remains physical, but incorporates superluminal siganalling (violating relativity), which I think is the loophole that Brady and Anderson are trying to use. Obviously in this case, the physical wave cannot be a constant multiple of the statistical wave, since the statistical wave is in configuration space. So it would not be straightforward generalization of de Broglie's theory for one particle. However, I don't know if there is any theory that supplies the correct technical details. A relativity violating theory would be ok, as long as the violation is below experimental resolution (for example, QED on a lattice violates relativity, but should be ok as long as the lattice is very fine).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell's_theorem

"Bell's theorem rules out local hidden variables as a viable explanation of quantum mechanics (though it still leaves the door open for non-local hidden variables).

When a downconverted photon pair are created, in order for there to be conservation of momentum, the pair are created with opposite angular momemtums. The propagate with opposite polarizations.

Each of the pair can determine the position and momentum of the other based upon their own position and momentum. This can be referred to as a non-local hidden (to us, not to the particles) variable theory.

Bell's theorem does not apply in de Broglie's double solution theory as it can be considered to be a non-local hidden variable theory.

The particles are not physically or superluminally connected.

They are entangled as they can determines each other's state.

 

[bohm2]

Yes, he did. And so is John Bush and his team.

Is there a hydrodynamic analog of entanglement that explains experiments showing that photons could be entangled that never existed at the same time:
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1209.4191v1.pdf

 

[bhobba]

de Broglie did not resolve the mathematics for either a single particle or multi-particles in terms of the physical wave which guides the particle.

He didn't.

Wow - what a fantastic theory. No wonder you are so enamoured.

Actually, from reading the paper I linked to I am pretty sure he did it for one particle - see the guide equation I mentioned before - equation 13.

Thanks
Bill

 

[bhobba]

When a downconverted photon pair are created, in order for there to be conservation of momentum, the pair are created with opposite angular momemtums. The propagate with opposite polarizations.

What have photons got to do with Bells theorem which applies to any quantum objects in a Bell state?

You keep mentioning this parametric down-converted stuff. Its a concept from quantum optics that has zero bearing on entanglement in general.

Thanks
Bill

 

[liquidspacetime]

This one is not hidden, but it is in French :

Restatement of the interpretation of the wave mechanic by the double-solution which the author, beginning again his attempts of 1924-1927, tried to develop with the collaboration of several young scientists.

This de Broglie paper explains the reason which led him to this double-solution

Patrick

I see nothing different in this article.

"the particle well localized in space follows one of the current lines of the flow hydrodynamics"

 

[bhobba]

Bell's theorem does not apply in de Broglie's double solution theory as it can be considered to be a non-local hidden variable theory.

Bells theorem must apply to it.

It says, since its non local, it can be real.

Thanks
Bill

 

[microsansfil]

In de Broglie's double solution theory the $v$ is always a real wave and the $\psi$ wave is never a physical wave, it is always a fictitious wave.

Yes, there is a probability amplitude used to build probabilist prediction and a physical wave, calls "wave phase", which has an objective status (dixit De Broglie.).

So why not use the objective physical wave to do deterministic prediction ?

Patrick

 

[bhobba]

I am correctly explaining entanglement. I am explain why Bell's theory does not apply to downconverted photons. I'm explaining why de Broglie's double solution theory is realistic and local.

Bell's theorem does not apply in de Broglie's double solution theory as it can be considered to be a non-local hidden variable theory.

Non local and local - now that's some theory.

Its non local since the particle is associated with a real physical wave.

Thanks
Bill

 

[liquidspacetime]

Mind detailing how he did it?

Thanks
Bill

NON-LINEAR WAVE MECHANICS
A CAUSAL INTERPRETATION
by
LOUIS DE BROGLIE

"Chapter IV. The Wave Mechanics of Systems of Particles
1. The Classical Dynamics of point-mass systems....... 40
2. The Wave Mechanics of systems of particles.......V 42
3. The probabilistic interpretation of the Wave Mechanics of systems of particles ............. 44
4. Systems of particles having the same physical nature...... 46
5. Remarks on the Wave Mechanics of systems of particles ... 48

CONTENTS
4. A comparison of the relative motion of two interacting particles with the
representation of that system’s motion in configuration space...
6. The case of particles of the same nature......"

 

[liquidspacetime]

Is there a hydrodynamic analog of entanglement that explains experiments showing that photons could be entangled that never existed at the same time:
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1209.4191v1.pdf

Since I understand entanglement to be each of the pair's ability to know the position and momentum of the other, I am not in complete agreement with the following, however, it looks like the type of explanation you are looking for.

http://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20140624-fluid-tests-hint-at-concrete-quantum-reality/

"If space and time behave like a superfluid, or a fluid that experiences no dissipation at all, then path memory could conceivably give rise to the strange quantum phenomenon of entanglement — what Einstein referred to as “spooky action at a distance.” When two particles become entangled, a measurement of the state of one instantly affects that of the other. The entanglement holds even if the two particles are light-years apart.

In standard quantum mechanics, the effect is rationalized as the instantaneous collapse of the particles’ joint probability wave. But in the pilot-wave version of events, an interaction between two particles in a superfluid universe sets them on paths that stay correlated forever because the interaction permanently affects the contours of the superfluid. “As the particles move along, they feel the wave field generated by them in the past and all other particles in the past,” Bush explained. In other words, the ubiquity of the pilot wave “provides a mechanism for accounting for these nonlocal correlations.” Yet an experimental test of droplet entanglement remains a distant goal."

What is described as "path memory" in the above I think is more correctly described as propagation of the particles with opposite angular momenta due to conservation of momentum.

 

[liquidspacetime]

What have photons got to do with Bells theorem which applies to any quantum objects in a Bell state?

You keep mentioning this parametric down-converted stuff. Its a concept from quantum optics that has zero bearing on entanglement in general.

Thanks
Bill

See https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/de-broglies-interpretation.775636/page-8#post-4879794

 

[atyy]

Since I understand entanglement to be each of the pair's ability to know the position and momentum of the other, I am not in complete agreement with the following, however, it looks like the type of explanation you are looking for.

http://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20140624-fluid-tests-hint-at-concrete-quantum-reality/

"If space and time behave like a superfluid, or a fluid that experiences no dissipation at all, then path memory could conceivably give rise to the strange quantum phenomenon of entanglement — what Einstein referred to as “spooky action at a distance.” When two particles become entangled, a measurement of the state of one instantly affects that of the other. The entanglement holds even if the two particles are light-years apart.

In standard quantum mechanics, the effect is rationalized as the instantaneous collapse of the particles’ joint probability wave. But in the pilot-wave version of events, an interaction between two particles in a superfluid universe sets them on paths that stay correlated forever because the interaction permanently affects the contours of the superfluid. “As the particles move along, they feel the wave field generated by them in the past and all other particles in the past,” Bush explained. In other words, the ubiquity of the pilot wave “provides a mechanism for accounting for these nonlocal correlations.” Yet an experimental test of droplet entanglement remains a distant goal."

What is described as "path memory" in the above I think is more correctly described as propagation of the particles with opposite angular momenta due to conservation of momentum.

Walchover's article is yet another well-known crackpot article!

 

[liquidspacetime]

Bells theorem must apply to it.

It says, since its non local, it can be real.

Thanks
Bill

Please make an attempt to understand the difference between non-local in terms of the particles themselves and a non-local hidden variable theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell's_theorem

"Bell's theorem rules out local hidden variables as a viable explanation of quantum mechanics (though it still leaves the door open for non-local hidden variables)"

Bell's theorem does not apply to non-local hidden variables.

 

[liquidspacetime]

Yes, there is a probability amplitude used to build probabilist prediction and a physical wave, calls "wave phase", which has an objective status (dixit De Broglie.).

So [why] not use the objective physical wave to do deterministic prediction ?

Patrick

That's what he was trying to do.

 

[liquidspacetime]

Non local and local - now that's some theory.

Its non local since the particle is associated with a real physical wave.

Thanks
Bill

It's local as it is a non-local hidden (to us, not to the particles themselves) variable theory.

 

[liquidspacetime]

Rubbish, rubbish and rubbish! AS you said, they HAVE NOT extended it to multiple particles.

It's just a matter of time until they will get the math correct. de Broglie had the correct understanding 60 years ago.

"Since 1954, when this passage was written, I have come to support wholeheartedly an hypothesis proposed by Bohm and Vigier. According to this hypothesis, the random perturbations to which the particle would be constantly subjected, and which would have the probability of presence in terms of $\psi$, arise from the interaction of the particle with a “subquantic medium” which escapes our observation and is entirely chaotic, and which is everywhere present in what we call “empty space"."