What is the correct charge conservation at a vertex in a decay process?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the conservation of charge at a vertex in particle decay processes, specifically analyzing the decay of a pion into a muon and an anti-muon neutrino. Participants explore the implications of charge conservation in the context of Feynman diagrams and the representation of particles and antiparticles.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that charge must be conserved at a vertex, suggesting that the sum of incoming and outgoing charges should equal zero.
  • One participant proposes that the decay process involves a W boson, questioning whether it should be W+ or W- based on the charges involved.
  • Another participant emphasizes the importance of charge flow, stating that whatever charge enters must also exit the vertex.
  • There is a discussion about the interpretation of arrows in Feynman diagrams, with some arguing that arrows indicate fermion number flow rather than charge flow.
  • Participants express confusion regarding the treatment of particles that appear stationary in time within the diagrams, particularly regarding how to assess charge at vertices.
  • Some participants challenge the labeling of particles in the diagrams, suggesting that mislabeling leads to misunderstandings about charge assignments.
  • There is a mention of specific charge values associated with quarks and how they contribute to the overall charge at the vertices.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the correct interpretation of charge conservation at the vertices, with multiple competing views on the role of W bosons and the implications of diagram labeling. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the correct charge assignments and the interpretation of arrows in the diagrams.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential misunderstandings stemming from the labeling of particles in diagrams, which may affect participants' interpretations of charge flow and conservation. There are also unresolved questions about how to treat stationary particles in the context of charge flow.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students and enthusiasts of particle physics, particularly those interested in Feynman diagrams and charge conservation principles in decay processes.

barnflakes
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Is my understanding correct:

Charge is conserved at a vertex. So the charges of particles pointing in towards a vertex and the charges of particles pointing out must be equal. Alternatively: The sum of the charges at a vertex must be zero.

So if this is correct, can someone explain the attached diagram to me?

This is for the decay process:

[tex]\pi^- -> \mu^- + \overline{\nu_{\mu}}[/tex]

To me, it should be a W^+ particle rather than W^-, since the charge at the first vertex is d = -1/3, anti-u = -2/3, and therefore if it's a W^- then the charge will be -2 rather than zero. If we put a W+ that solves the problem. Similarly on the other side, we have -1 from the muon and zero from the anti-muon-neutrino so we need a +1 from a W+ to conserve charge at the vertex.
 

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Forget to mention we use the x-axis as time and the y-axis as space.
 
If time goes to the right, think about it as charge flow. Whatever goes in must go out. If -1 goes in -1 goes out and so on. There is no "AT" the vertex.
 
In that diagram, -1/3 goes in but -2/3 + (-1) goes out. Something is fishy there? Essentially this "flow change" you talk of means exactly that total charge should equal zero at a vertex, no? Otherwise it is implying charge is created..
 
anti U + D gives -1 as charge

that charge is entering the vertex

what is leaving the vertex is a W, with charge -1

thus charge is conserved at the vertex.

The arrows on the solid fermion lines does NOT mean charge flow, but fermion number flow!
 
ansgar said:
anti U + D gives -1 as charge

that charge is entering the vertex

what is leaving the vertex is a W, with charge -1

thus charge is conserved at the vertex.

The arrows on the solid fermion lines does NOT mean charge flow, but fermion number flow!

If the arrows don't indicate charge flow, then how do you decide what charge is "entering" the vertex and what is "leaving" the vertex? Purely from the left-right nature of the time axis?
 
OK I think I'm getting now, except how do I treat a particle at a vertex that is pointing vertically upwards ie.stationary in time?

Example attached, can someone describe what the charges at each vertex would be for me here, using this flow analogy, because I don't see it, for instance in the bottom right vertex, it looks like charge -1/3 is flowing in, and a charge of 2/3 for the u particle, but then -1 via the W- flowing out?
 

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Last edited:
(you forgot bar on S)

look at the lower left vertex the total charge is -1/3 from the d-quarks and -(+2/3) from the u quark since the arrow is reversed, he W then carries -1 charge

i.e. -1/3 + -2/3 = -1

another way to look at it is that the d-quark is going to an up quark and a W boson

i.e. -1/3 = 2/3 + -1 so when you have a vertical line, there are two ways to look at it.
 
You just said that the arrows don't indicate charge direction! What you have just written is in contradiction there? So if an arrow points away from a vertex, it indicates that it's an anti-particle with respect to that vertex? If it is going towards it, it's a particle? When it is a vertical line I mean?
 
  • #10
barnflakes said:
You just said that the arrows don't indicate charge direction! What you have just written is in contradiction there? So if an arrow points away from a vertex, it indicates that it's an anti-particle with respect to that vertex? If it is going towards it, it's a particle? When it is a vertical line I mean?

well they do that SINCE the arrows indicate fermion number flow, I should have pointed that out ;)
 
  • #11
OK, now the top left vertex, +1/3 and +2/3 flowing in, but -1 flowing out? How does that work?
 
  • #12
barnflakes said:
OK, now the top left vertex, +1/3 and +2/3 flowing in, but -1 flowing out? How does that work?

no in comes +1/3 and out goes -2/3 (the u) and +1 (W+ .. why did you think that it should be a W-?)

*sigh*
 
  • #13
Because otherwise in the top right vertex you have +1 going in and -1 going out?
 
  • #14
barnflakes said:
Because otherwise in the top right vertex you have +1 going in and -1 going out?

that muon is +. the muon in the lower right is -
 
  • #15
In the diagram the muons are unlabeled. The top one MUST have positive charge, from the diagram. Therefor it is an ANTI muon, and so the arrow should be the other way. Same goes for the lower.

The diagram is wrong by 99% of people's conventions that a PARTICLE MUON has NEGATIVE charge.
 
  • #16
Hepth said:
In the diagram the muons are unlabeled. The top one MUST have positive charge, from the diagram. Therefor it is an ANTI muon, and so the arrow should be the other way. Same goes for the lower.

The diagram is wrong by 99% of people's conventions that a PARTICLE MUON has NEGATIVE charge.

that was going to be my second comment ;)
 
  • #17
OK thank you guys, ansgar sorry for not getting it as quick as you like, I'm new to particle physics and when the diagrams are labelled wrongly it doesn't help understanding. Now it makes sense to me though, thank you :)
 
  • #18
barnflakes said:
OK thank you guys, ansgar sorry for not getting it as quick as you like, I'm new to particle physics and when the diagrams are labelled wrongly it doesn't help understanding. Now it makes sense to me though, thank you :)

I was also new once and thought that this was difficult! Now Iam doing my PhD in theoretical elementary particle physics :)

good luck and please do not hesitate to ask questions here
 

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