What is the definition of supremum and how does it relate to set A?

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter lukaszh
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Set Supremum
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the definition of supremum in relation to a specific finite set A, specifically examining whether the number 5 is the supremum of the set A = {1, 2, 3, 4, 5}. The conversation includes theoretical aspects of supremum and its properties.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the supremum S of a set A must satisfy two conditions: (a) all elements x in A are less than or equal to S, and (b) for any positive ε, there exists an element x0 in A such that S - ε < x0.
  • One participant questions whether 5 can be considered the supremum of set A, arguing that while condition (a) is satisfied, condition (b) fails for ε = 0.1.
  • Another participant suggests that x0 can be chosen as 5, implying that the supremum of a finite set is equivalent to its maximum.
  • It is noted that the supremum can be viewed as a generalization of the maximum, particularly in finite sets.
  • One participant asserts that the definition provided is incorrect, stating that condition (a) alone describes an upper bound, while both conditions are necessary for a supremum.
  • Another participant emphasizes that both conditions must hold for S to be a supremum, clarifying that (b) ensures S is the least upper bound.
  • One participant argues that it is possible for a number to be a supremum without satisfying condition (b), suggesting a potential exception to the definition.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the interpretation of the supremum definition, particularly concerning the necessity of condition (b). Some assert that both conditions are required, while others suggest that a supremum can exist without fulfilling condition (b).

Contextual Notes

There is ambiguity regarding the definitions and conditions related to supremum and upper bounds, leading to differing interpretations among participants.

lukaszh
Messages
32
Reaction score
0
Hello,
I found the definition. If S is supremum of set A, then
a) [tex]\forall x\in A:x\leq S[/tex]
b) [tex]\forall\varepsilon>0\;\exists x_0\in A:S-\varepsilon<x_0[/tex]

Now let define set [tex]A=\{1,2,3,4,5\}[/tex]. Is number 5 supremum of set A? Condition a) is satisfied, but b) is problem. If [tex]\varepsilon=0.1[/tex], there isn't x_0 in the set A such that
[tex]5-0.1<x_0[/tex]

Could you explain that?
 
Physics news on Phys.org


What's wrong with x_0=5 ?
 


As quasar said above, x0 is chosen to be 5.

The supremum of a finite set is always the same as the maximum of that set. The supremum, in a sense, can be thought of as a generalization of the idea of maximum.
 


The supremum of a set is either an element of the set or a limit that the elements tend to. Of course in this finite set the supremum is going to be an element of the set.
 


lukaszh said:
Hello,
I found the definition. If S is supremum of set A, then
a) [tex]\forall x\in A:x\leq S[/tex]
b) [tex]\forall\varepsilon>0\;\exists x_0\in A:S-\varepsilon<x_0[/tex]

Now let define set [tex]A=\{1,2,3,4,5\}[/tex]. Is number 5 supremum of set A? Condition a) is satisfied, but b) is problem. If [tex]\varepsilon=0.1[/tex], there isn't x_0 in the set A such that
[tex]5-0.1<x_0[/tex]

Could you explain that?
The explanation is that the definition you give is wrong. (a) is the definition of "upper bound". In order that an upper bound be a "supremum" (also called "least upper bound") it must be the smallest of all upper bounds. In this case, every number less than or equal to 5 is an upper bound so 5 is the "least upper bound" or "supremum".
 


Halls, the definition consists of both parts (a) and (b). (a) says that it's an upper bound. (b) says that it's the least such upper bound (notice that (b) doesn't make S an upper bound by itself)
 


But the whole point is that, while if (a) and (b) are both true, then S is a supremum, it can happen, as in the example given here, that a number is a supremum without (b) being true.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
5K
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
4K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
2K
Replies
3
Views
6K