What is the elusive origin of gravity?

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The discussion centers on the elusive origin of gravity, with participants noting that while gravity is understood in terms of its effects, its fundamental nature remains unclear. The Big Bang theory is mentioned as a starting point, but participants argue that gravity may not have a definitive origin in an infinite universe. There is debate over whether gravity should be classified as a force or a pseudo-force, with references to Einstein's General Relativity and its implications for understanding gravitational effects. The conversation also touches on the relationship between matter and the geometry of space, highlighting the complexity of these interactions. Ultimately, the discussion reflects a broader uncertainty in physics regarding the fundamental nature of gravity and its connection to space and matter.
  • #61
Bjarne said:
Garth

Right, - Space-time is a better expression, even though it belongs to a higher dimension.
I mean space can certainly deform whereby time also changes.

But when we want to understand why a horizontal moving cannonballs lose its potential energy (100 MPH) before a football, - we still depend on a Newtonian way of calculation / theory, - right?

--------
Bjarne
We certainly can and do use Newtonian theory in regimes where it is accurate enough, such as when NASA sling shot a spacecraft around the solar system with incredible accuracy.

Newtonian theory is used, if it is accurate enough, because the calculations are much simpler. You just have to be consistent with the paradigm you use.

I don't understand your question of "a horizontal moving cannonballs lose its potential energy (100 MPH) before a football".

In a vacuum the cannonball, a football, and a feather all fall at the same acceleration, this is http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/06may_lunarranging.htm re-enacted on the Moon by the Apollo 15 astronauts.

Garth
 
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  • #62
Demurral and Request for Clarification

yogi said:
what I detect was a shift in the direction of attempting to explain physics in terms of space as a substantive

You should say "I think I detect", since others familiar with his writings can and do disagree about what he appears to have meant by various statements.

yogi said:
in the spherical space-time universe of de Sitter, the two sphere surface grid is composed of time and space.

Huh? As you know there are many coordinate charts we can use on various pieces of the de Sitter lambdavacuum, aka H^{1,3} (a Lorentzian spacetime with uniform negative curvature), including comoving charts adapted to static (non-inertial) observers and to various families of inertial observers. In particular,
<br /> ds^2 = \frac{-dt^2 + dx^2+dy^2+dz^2}{(t/a)^2}, \;<br /> 0 &lt; t &lt; \infty, -\infty &lt; x, \, y, \, z &lt; \infty<br />
is conformal to the upper half space portion of Minkowski spacetime and is comoving with a "collapsing" family of inertial observers whose world lines form a vorticity-free timelike geodesic congruence, whose orthogonal hyperslices are all isometric to euclidean three-space. Here, intervals of t do not correspond to intervals of proper time as measured by ideal clocks carried by our observers, but we can change to a comoving chart
<br /> ds^2 = -d\tau^2 + \exp(-2 \, \tau/a) \; \left( dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2 \right),<br /> \; -\infty &lt; \tau, \, x, \, y, \, z &lt; \infty, \;<br />
There is a very similar chart for a family of expanding inertial observers, who also have orthogonal hyperslices isometric to euclidean three-space. But there are also families of inertial observers whose world lines form a vorticity free timelike geodesic congruence, whose orthogonal hyperslices are each isometric to H^3, e.g.
<br /> ds^2 = -dT^2 + a^2 \, \sinh(T/a)^2 \; \left( \frac{dx^2+dy^2+dz^2}{z^2} \right), \;<br /> 0 &lt; T, \, z &lt; \infty, \; -\infty &lt; x, \, y &lt; \infty<br />
And there are observers who have constant acceleration directed radially inward in a suitable polar spherical chart, such as this one (analgous to Eddington chart):
<br /> ds^2 = -(1-(r/a)^2) \, dv^2 + 2 dv \, dr + r^2 \; \left( d\theta^2 + \sin(\theta)^2 \, d\phi^2 \right), \;<br /> -\infty &lt; v &lt; \infty, \; 0 &lt; r &lt; \infty, \; 0 &lt; \theta &lt; \pi, \; -\pi &lt; \phi &lt; \pi<br />
The world lines of these observers again form a vorticity-free timelike congruence whose orthogonal hyperslices are each isometric to S^3. Many other charts can be found in Hawking and Ellis and in the literature, e.g. "static" version of the previous chart (analgous to Schwarzschild chart), Brill chart, Penrose chart, etc. I stress again that there are both expanding and contracting observers in this spacetime who can be used to define "negligible density" cosmological models (better say "toy models").

So what is your "two-sphere grid"?

yogi said:
As the spherical universe expands, both the time dimension and the space dimension increase in relation to their previous lengths ...its the inflating balloon model except that the surface is composed of one time dimension and one space dimension rather than two space dimensions - so the reference for change is the previous surface itself

This makes no sense as written. Can you explain what you are trying to say in terms of the line element in some coordinate chart? Any "increase" or other physical change will probably be seen to refer to some family of observers whose motion can be characterized geometrically, independently of coordinate description.

yogi said:
If you like - with intense effort I will probably to be able to understand about every third word

That's not very encouraging! :frown: Yogi, may I ask: what is your comprehension rate when you read Hawking and Ellis? If you don't understand timelike congruences and their kinematic decomposition (acceleration, expansion scalar, shear tensor, vorticity vector) and null geodesic congruences and their optical scalars, you really can't hold any meaningful discussion of cosmological models! Remember, this ideas were imported/introduced more than forty years ago and immediately became standard core topics due to their great utility. These techniques are perfectly suited to studying the geometry (i.e. the physics) without getting confused by "features" ("bugs"?) which merely characterize a particular aspect of a given coordinate representation.
 
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  • #63
Garth
I don't understand your question of "a horizontal moving cannonballs lose its potential energy (100 MPH) before a football".

Imaging you is an artillerist. If you have a same size football and cannonball, and use the same amount of gun power, the football will reach furthest. (Lets say the wind resistance is the same for both objects)

My point is that it can’t only be ‘curved space’ that determinate how fare an objects travel. – But on the other hand I am not highly educated and don’t know how advanced this science is.

I think it is difficult to understand how ‘curved space’ should possible could explain the different gravity ‘pull’ effecting different masses / objects. I mean what have ‘space-geometry’ with a force / pull to do? – I can not unite these two factors based on the today available knowledge. I also can’t see that Einstein had reason to triumphant over Isaac Newton. – To my opinion why should it not be possible that both Newton and Einstein both was right? - A (invisible) Newtonian force (though space) could very well pull space until it ‘curves’.

We still don’t’ know the cause of the gravity; is it a force? – How can matter be the origin? - How can space pass on such pull / force, - or what is ‘curved space’ really for a strange kind of nature, - and a lot more why?

My underlying point is that I simply can not imaging me that space really (just) ‘curves’, like was it a roulet. – Its fine that such model can be used mathematically, - but its not all right that our imagination not is allowed to understand it..

Maybe space is not such complex and hard to imagine curved nature. - Already it is complicated enough that space is able to expand, - why make it even more unnecessary mysterious?
What when the nature of space really only is so simple like; - space can expand and therefore (off course) also contract –and that’s it.?.

Einstein didn’t know (belived) that space really had the ability to expand, even though matematically result was showing this as well as space could contract.
I think as a starting point we naturally at least should allow us self to finish simple thinking; - what if space only is a ‘flexible’ simply kind nature? - Before we begins to complicate the phenomena further.

Well this seems immediate to be a vague argument to explain the underlying cause of gravity, - but why make the properties of space even more complex and thereby making space a lot more mysterious, when everything seems to point to that it really is not necessary, - for achieving a coherent complete understanding of gravity.?

Imaging that matter (somehow) contracts space around it self. Such simple starting point really would from a synthesis between Einstein, Newton and all our formula’s without violating anything.

The winner would be our imagination that suddenly was allowed to enter into the gravity secret, - doesn’t matter where the mean tread would lead us. – I mean black holes, dark matter, dark energy, the cause of galaxy- solar system – heavenly body formation, and much more.

So why not first try to keep ‘space’ so simple as possible, and see where this leads us? - What if space only is is stupid flexible nature, - nothing more likes that.
---------
Bjarne
 
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  • #64
In order to criticize a theory a person has to understand it first, otherwise they only demonstrate their own ignorance.

From your post above it is obvious you don't actually understand GR, try reading one of the excellent introductions to relativity theory recommended elsewhere on these Forums or on the web you can begin by reading Ned Wright's Tutorial.

In the football and cannon ball case the same amount of gunpowder would accelerate the football to a higher velocity than the cannon ball because it was lighter, this is the law of momentum.
Air resistance would affect the football more because it had less mass, it would have a higher deceleration, this is fluid dynamics and not either Newtonian nor Einsteinian gravity.

Ignoring air resistance the trajectories of both balls is accurately described by GR. and nearly as accurately by Newtonian theory.

My point is that it can’t only be ‘curved space’ that determinate how fare an objects travel
With the correction that we are talking about curved 'space-time' and not just 'space', yes space-time curvature as defined in GR can accurately determine free falling trajectories, that is the point.
To my opinion why should it not be possible that both Newton and Einstein both was right?
because observations have been made, such as the light deflection by the Sun or time delays of spacecraft whose radio pulses pass close to the Sun en route to Earth, that are accurately predicted by GR but not Newton. It is called doing science, theories stand or fall on empirical testing and falsification.

Garth
 
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  • #65
Garth

You are right,- just 5 minutes simple reflecting over ‘fluid dynamics’ and a ‘mystery' is gone. - Thank you.
You are also right that it would be very helpful to read more about known knowledge of gravity / relativity.
Well this is 'mainly' correct, - the point here is that it wouldn’t bring anyone closer to a coherent complete understanding of the origin of gravity or why a huge number of very related questions remains unanswered.
Notice I am not criticize any prevailing theories, but only that it seems that something very simple very well could be overlooked.
What I mean 'curved space' could very well be the exactly same as 'contracted space' - It is not necessary (no reason) to think a such understanding involves any kind of conflict , - but could be only a little different way of perception of the same phenomena..
As I wrote I haven’t fully explained the full range of this simple claim, I will do this in a couple of weeks, and post it to the relevant part of this forum its belong.

----------
Bjarne
 
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  • #66
marcus said:
the most accurate theory of gravity, currently, represents it as the way matter affects geometry. I think this remains mysterious. How can matter affect geometry?

and there is the puzzle about inertia. why should stuff follow geodesics? and why should a thing's inertia ("inertial mass") be the same as the ("gravitational mass") strength with which it bends geometry? this does seem elusive, to use your word.

I've just been reading a 2001 book by Smolin called *Three Roads to Quantum Gravity* and I'm amazed at how good it is. Didn't expect such clarity and depth in a popular-written book. The last chapter has a prospective on how these very same problems might eventually (over next 10 years say) be addressed and solved. nice thing is that he doesn't just trivialize the problems---he takes a serious look into them. Great book.
is gravity stronger than we think possibly due to Planck sized dimensions
 
  • #67
gravity can be repulsive ?
 
  • #68
Andrewj
gravity can be repulsive ?

A none philosophic answer to that question is; we don’t know.
We also don’t know if dark energy exists, there is good reason to believe it does and good reason to believe it doesn’t.
If dark energy exists it is reason to believe that it is could be part of the gravity mystery (as well as dark matter possible could be).
Gravity could very well have a repulsive property. But again fully understanding the nature of ‘space’ is necessary.
You questions can only be answered philosophic. Assuming that gravity / curved space is variation of ‘space density’ would mean that gravity at the same time both can have attraction as well as repulsion properties / forces, even though it immediate seems to be a self-contradiction.

------
Bjarne
 
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  • #69
Come again?

andrewj said:
gravity can be repulsive ?

Not sure why you ask (possibly because Bjarne is in my Ignore list), but let me ask you a question of my own: are you familiar with the Raychaudhuri formula, a fundamental theorem in gtr? If not, I highly recommend that you read about this in a standard textbook, such as the very clear undergraduate textbook by D'Inverno, Understanding Einstein's Relativity.
 
  • #70
Chris?
Einstein’s relativity does not answer the question.
Einstein didn’t even not know that the universe was expanding - Dark energy was also not know at that time.
Why should someone ask a gravity related question because ‘Bjarne’ is on you ignore list?
Do you think it is fair to post such kind of repeated negative ‘attention’ - Chris?

---------
Bjarne
 
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  • #71
robust manifold

castlegates said:
Because it's right under our noses.

That is, the robust manifold (continuum) i.e. pseudo-Riemannian spacetime, is right under (and part of) our nose etc.
 

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