What Is the Entropy of a Black Hole?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of entropy in black holes, exploring whether black holes possess entropy, how it is defined, and the implications of this property in the context of thermodynamics and cosmology. The scope includes theoretical considerations and conceptual clarifications related to entropy and black hole physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether black holes have entropy and discuss the implications of entropy as a measure of change in a system.
  • One participant proposes that the entropy of a black hole can be expressed as S=\frac{1}{4}A, where A is the area of the black hole at the event horizon, suggesting a connection to thermodynamic laws.
  • Another participant notes that black holes appear to follow thermodynamic laws, drawing parallels between black hole properties and classical thermodynamics, including the idea that the total area of black holes cannot decrease.
  • There is mention of Hawking radiation and its role in reinforcing the connection between black holes and thermodynamics, although the practical testing of these ideas remains challenging.
  • A participant raises a question about the significance of black holes being considered high entropy singularities compared to the big bang as a low entropy singularity, seeking to understand the implications of this distinction.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying views on the existence and implications of entropy in black holes, with no consensus reached on the significance or interpretation of these concepts.

Contextual Notes

The discussion involves complex definitions and assumptions regarding entropy, thermodynamic laws, and the nature of black holes, which may not be fully resolved or universally accepted among participants.

jackle
Messages
277
Reaction score
0
Does a black hole have entropy? How do we know? What does it "do"?
 
Astronomy news on Phys.org
jackle said:
Does a black hole have entropy? How do we know? What does it "do"?
Everything "has entropy" at some given state or another. Entropy is not a state of being, it is a measure of a change.
Entropy is defined as the "capacity for change" of a system. If the state of a system is changed but the entropy is not changed (Del S = 0), then the process was reversible (able to be changed back to the original state without added energy). If the state of a system is changed and the entropy increases (Del S > 0), then the process was irreversible, or spontaneous. NOTICE, the Del S (change in entropy) for a state change cannot be less than zero! Since most processes are irreversible, it is said that universal entropy is always increasing - since entropy is the driving force behind equilibrium (not chaos), this means that the universe is constantly moving toward a less dynamic state.
So, the question should be whether there is a change in entropy, not just does it have entropy.
 
jackle said:
Does a black hole have entropy?

We think so, yes. In natural units, the entropy of a black hole is given simply by:

[tex]S=\frac{1}{4}A[/tex]

where A is the area of the black hole:

[tex]A=\int \sqrt{g_{\theta\theta}g_{\phi\phi}}d\theta d\phi[/tex],

which is evaluated at the outer event horizon.
How do we know?

It's a long story, but the basic idea is that black holes seem to follow their own laws of thermodynamics if one makes the replacements, T -> T_{Hawking}, E -> M, and S -> A. For example, in classical theory (prior to the recognition that they could radiate), there was no way to decrease the total area of all black holes in the universe. This is like the second law of thermodynamics, which says that the total entropy of a closed system must always increase.

The recognition of these connections actually predated Hawking's realization that black holes had a temperature, so the temperature analogy was originally made to a constant quantity defined on the event horizon of the black hole. The development of the theory surrounding Hawking radiation only strengthened the connection between black holes and thermodynamics.

Initially, it was treated simply as an analogy to the laws of thermodynamics, but we now believe that the entropy I give above is the actual thermodynamic entropy of the black hole. This is difficult to test with actual experiments, but we have been unable to find any contradictions in these identities when black holes are included in thermodynamic systems.
What does it "do"?

Not quite sure what you mean here.
 
Last edited:
What does it "do"?

SpaceTiger said:
Not quite sure what you mean here.

I heard a lecturer saying that black holes were thought to be high entropy singularities and the big bang was thought to be a low entropy singularity.

I am trying to understand what difference it makes.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 40 ·
2
Replies
40
Views
5K
  • · Replies 49 ·
2
Replies
49
Views
7K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
4K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K