What is the problem in this Proof

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the validity of a proof claiming that any two natural numbers \( a \) and \( b \) are equal, using mathematical induction. Participants analyze the steps of the proof and identify potential flaws in its reasoning.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that the implication \( \max{(a, b)} = k \implies a = b \) is incorrect, citing examples such as \( \max{(5, 7)} = 7 \) while \( 5 \neq 7 \).
  • Others note that the proof does not demonstrate that all natural numbers are equal but rather shows that any two equal natural numbers are equal.
  • A participant points out that the proof fails in the last two sentences, specifically when applying the induction hypothesis, as it is unclear whether \( a-1 \) and \( b-1 \) remain natural numbers, potentially leading to one being zero.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the flaws in the proof, particularly regarding the incorrect implication and the uncertainty about the naturalness of \( a-1 \) and \( b-1 \). However, the exact location of the mistake in the proof remains a point of discussion.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in the proof's assumptions, particularly regarding the properties of natural numbers under subtraction and the implications of the maximum function.

Amer
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In your point of view what is the problem in this Proof
Claim any two natural a,b are equal
By induction
Let m= max{a,b}
if m=1 then a=b=1 since a,b natural
suppose it is hold for m=k
if
max{a,b} = k then a=b
test if
max{a,b} = k+1 , sub 1
max{a-1,b-1} = k which is the previous so a-1 = b-1 , a=b

I saw it in facebook
 
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Amer said:
In your point of view what is the problem in this Proof
Claim any two natural a,b are equal
By induction
Let m= max{a,b}
if m=1 then a=b=1 since a,b natural
suppose it is hold for m=k
if
max{a,b} = k then a=b
test if
max{a,b} = k+1 , sub 1
max{a-1,b-1} = k which is the previous so a-1 = b-1 , a=b

I saw it in facebook

I saw it on math.stackexchange too. The problem is that $\max{(a, b)} = k ~ \implies ~ a = b$ is clearly wrong, and the proof was designed to hide this fact. For instance, $\max{(5, 7)} = 7$, but last time I checked we had $5 \ne 7$.

In essence, this "proof" doesn't show that all natural numbers are equal, it shows that any two equal natural numbers are equal ;)​
 
Bacterius said:
The problem is that $\max{(a, b)} = k ~ \implies ~ a = b$ is clearly wrong, and the proof was designed to hide this fact. For instance, $\max{(5, 7)} = 7$, but last time I checked we had $5 \ne 7$.
But this does not explain which proof step in particular is wrong. Of course the implication max(a, b) = k ⇒ a = b is false, just like the original claim that a = b for all a, b. But the proof claims to show just that, and the question is where the mistake in the proof is located.
 
Amer said:
In your point of view what is the problem in this Proof
Claim any two natural a,b are equal
By induction
Let m= max{a,b}
if m=1 then a=b=1 since a,b natural
suppose it is hold for m=k
if
max{a,b} = k then a=b
test if
max{a,b} = k+1 , sub 1
max{a-1,b-1} = k which is the previous so a-1 = b-1 , a=b

I saw it in facebook

The proof goes wrong in the last two sentences.

We have max{a,b}=k+1

Now we have max{a-1,b-1}=k.

We now want to apply the induction hypothesis here to have a-1=b-1 and thus a=b. But we can't do this. This is because we are not sure if a-1 and b-1 are natural numbers. We can very well have one of a-1 and b-1 equal to 0.

So this is the problem in the proof.
 

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