What is the problem with GR and quantum

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the challenges of reconciling General Relativity (GR) and Quantum Mechanics (QM), exploring the fundamental issues that arise when attempting to integrate these two theories. Participants delve into the nature of time, the mathematical inconsistencies encountered when both theories are applied simultaneously, and the implications of these challenges for understanding the universe.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the underlying problems with GR and QM, suggesting that if time were not as described by GR, it might resolve some issues.
  • Another participant highlights that the mathematical solutions become nonsensical when both theories are applied together, particularly in extreme conditions like black holes.
  • A different viewpoint discusses the differences in how GR and QM treat trajectories, noting that QM involves discontinuous trajectories while GR assumes smooth ones, indicating a need for a theory of quantum gravity that reconciles these differences.
  • Some participants express confusion over the conceptualization of time as a fabric of the universe, with one suggesting that time is merely a coordinate and questioning the implications of mass allowing space to exist.
  • There is a mention of the Higgs boson in relation to the existence of mass and its connection to the discussion on time and motion.
  • Questions arise about whether quantum gravity, potentially involving a graviton, could address the discontinuities in trajectories that arise in quantum mechanics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views, with some agreeing on the mathematical challenges of integrating GR and QM, while others present differing interpretations of time and its role in the theories. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing perspectives on the nature of time and the implications for quantum gravity.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in understanding the relationship between time, motion, and the fabric of the universe, as well as the unresolved mathematical steps in merging GR and QM. The discussion reflects ongoing uncertainties and assumptions that are not fully clarified.

woodysooner
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can anyone well versed in both GR and quantum explain to me the very underlying problems with these to theories, and if time was not a factor ie... time was not as GR explains, would that solve any problems. To my knowledge time is the result of the geometry of the universe, as in theory, what if time is the fabric of the universe the sheet that all rests on, and mass lies on this sheet and allows space to exist and motion. Motion and the time sheet is the only thing that allows time intervals to be seen, no motion no time, sounds crazy but using a thought experiment totally shows the legitimacy, imagine a 3 dimensitional block no imagine two things lying in the same point in time, at A. now if two masses take off from that point one traveling faster one slower. the faster takes a more angled down approach in time, and as the limit of motion approaches that of C , theta of the angle down would reach 180 degrees meaning no times interval can be seen, whereas a slow objects would move near a straight line on the time sheet. all the effects or consequences of GR that i know of i can explain with this aspect, many of you may voice that this is same thing as norman but i don't think it is. its not anymore that we look at the change in motion with respect of tiime its the opposite we watch for the change in time with respect to motion. I think motion is the only way we can see what time is or shalli say a time interval. this isn't theory development or anything just want some clarifications so please don't warn me or anything. but taking time out of the equation would this help out with quantum problems.
 
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no idea? Sorry to bug yall?
 
no more bothering yall but i will refine the question to just this, "what is the difficulty on squaring quantum with GR" that's it.
 
The problem is a mathematical one. When both theories have to be used together (e.g. inside a black hole), the solutions are mathematically nonsensical.
 
Quantum mechanics describes things in flat space-time with a wave function that lives in Hilbert space. General relativity describes things in space-time with a stress-energy tensor that determines the curvature of space-time. Because of the dispersion ("uncertainty") relations, quantum particles do not have smooth or even continuous trajectories. General relativity assumes smooth trajectories. To get a theory of quantum gravity that approximates both general relativity and quantum mechanics, will take a subtle blend of the continuous and discontinuous.
 
woodysooner said:
can anyone well versed in both GR and quantum explain to me the very underlying problems with these to theories, and if time was not a factor ie... time was not as GR explains, would that solve any problems.


Theory of Relativity gives times the same role that coordinates used to have for the last 350 years.That is to say,the introduction of space-time continuum made things fair.Time has had this role and apparently any of the existing theories and most probably none of the next will change it.


woodysooner said:
To my knowledge time is the result of the geometry of the universe, as in theory, what if time is the fabric of the universe the sheet that all rests on, and mass lies on this sheet and allows space to exist and motion.

I'm notmaking head or tail of what you're saying here.Time is merely a coordinate.Mass lies on the mass shell which is nothing but a 3D hypersurface in Minkowski space.The part with "allows space to exist" looks weird,and i mean "weird"... :rolleyes:
woodysooner said:
Motion and the time sheet is the only thing that allows time intervals to be seen, no motion no time, sounds crazy but using a thought experiment totally shows the legitimacy, imagine a 3 dimensitional block no imagine two things lying in the same point in time, at A. now if two masses take off from that point one traveling faster one slower. the faster takes a more angled down approach in time, and as the limit of motion approaches that of C , theta of the angle down would reach 180 degrees meaning no times interval can be seen, whereas a slow objects would move near a straight line on the time sheet. all the effects or consequences of GR that i know of i can explain with this aspect, many of you may voice that this is same thing as norman but i don't think it is. its not anymore that we look at the change in motion with respect of tiime its the opposite we watch for the change in time with respect to motion. I think motion is the only way we can see what time is or shalli say a time interval. this isn't theory development or anything just want some clarifications so please don't warn me or anything. but taking time out of the equation would this help out with quantum problems.

Those are purely fantasmagorical thoughts/ideas.I suggest you temper your imagination and feed her with some math and physics.

Daniel.
 
sorry daniel, the whole gives chance to exist part, moreless higgs boson stuff right.

and rob, so the discontinuities in trajectories can't pan out with GR, correct?

how would quantum gravity help, would the gravitron supposedly be able to make sense of these discontinuties.
 
woodysooner said:
and rob, so the discontinuities in trajectories can't pan out with GR, correct?

how would quantum gravity help, would the gravitron supposedly be able to make sense of these discontinuties.

Yes and No
 

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