What is the problem with the Minkowski relationship in special relativity?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Minkowski relationship in special relativity, specifically addressing perceived inconsistencies when applying time dilation and length contraction formulas. Participants explore the implications of these formulas on the Minkowski relationship and the conditions under which they hold true.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asserts that the Minkowski relationship, given by (c.t)^2 - x^2 = k, is a constant, while time and space differences observed by different observers are not constant due to the factor gamma.
  • Another participant challenges the initial reasoning by clarifying the correct transformation equations, Δx' = γ(Δx - v Δt) and Δt' = γ(Δt - v Δx), suggesting that the misunderstanding arises from misapplying the time dilation and length contraction formulas.
  • A different participant emphasizes that the time dilation and length contraction formulas are simplifications of the Lorentz transform, which should be used to avoid misapplication in various scenarios.
  • One participant notes that the time dilation and length contraction apply only under specific conditions, highlighting that they are not universally applicable without considering the context of the events.
  • Another participant points out that the equations should be expressed in units where c = 1, and provides a modified equation for clarity, indicating the need for careful consideration of units in the transformations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the application of time dilation and length contraction formulas, with some advocating for their use and others recommending reliance on the Lorentz transform. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best approach to reconcile these concepts with the Minkowski relationship.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on specific conditions for the application of time dilation and length contraction, as well as the potential for confusion when these formulas are presented without context. The discussion highlights the need for careful application of the Lorentz transform in various scenarios.

John Hobson
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The Minkowski relationship is an important aspect of special relativity.

(c.t)^2 - x^2 = k

For two points in spacetime, observers moving at different speeds observe different time and space differences between them. Neither is constant but the above relationship is. It is the minus sign that implies space time has a hyperbolic structure.

However if we use the other expressions from special relativity, as an observer moves, clocks slow by the factor gamma so the measured time difference increases by 1/gamma. Similarly rulers shrink by the factor gamma, so measured distances increase by 1/gamma. But if we put these into the above relationship we would get

(c.t)^2 - x^2 = (1/gamma)^2.k

Since gamma is not a constant, this is not the Minkowski relationship. What am I missing?
 
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John Hobson said:
However if we use the other expressions from special relativity, as an observer moves, clocks slow by the factor gamma so the measured time difference increases by 1/gamma. Similarly rulers shrink by the factor gamma, so measured distances increase by 1/gamma. But if we put these into the above relationship we would get

(c.t)^2 - x^2 = (1/gamma)^2.k

Since gamma is not a constant, this is not the Minkowski relationship. What am I missing?
You're thinking that

Δx' = γ Δx
Δt' = γ Δt

whereas actually

Δx' = γ(Δx - v Δt)
Δt' = γ(Δt - v Δx)
 
John Hobson said:
Since gamma is not a constant, this is not the Minkowski relationship. What am I missing?

Measured time differences increase by a factor gamma, but c.t' = c.t.gamma only for x=0 (see Wikipedia Time dilation)
Measured distances decrease by a factor gamma, but x' = x/gamma only for t'=0 (see Wikipedia Length contraction)
Combining these two clearly distinct situations with two events can only be done for the trivial case where x=t=x'=t'=0.
 
John Hobson said:
However if we use the other expressions from special relativity, as an observer moves, clocks slow by the factor gamma so the measured time difference increases by 1/gamma. Similarly rulers shrink by the factor gamma, so measured distances increase by 1/gamma.
You have run into a very common problem for new students of relativity. Often the time-dilation and length-contraction formulas are presented as though they are general formulas which always apply as written without any additional terms. The truth of the matter is that they are both simplifications of the Lorentz transform which are only valid under certain specific circumstances.

My recommendation is to not use the length contraction or time dilation formulas at all. Simply use the Lorentz transform always. It will automatically simplify to the length contraction or time dilation formula wherever it is appropriate, but you will never run into situations like this where you misapply them to situations where the assumptions are not met.
 
Bill_K said:
whereas actually

Δx' = γ(Δx - v Δt)
Δt' = γ(Δt - v Δx)

Just to make sure the OP doesn't get confused, this is in units where c = 1. Putting in the factors of c explicitly, the first equation is unchanged but the second becomes

Δt' = γ(Δt - v Δx / c^2)
 

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