What is the proof that the divergence is normal to the surface?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between the divergence of a function and the normal direction to a surface defined by that function. Participants explore whether the divergence can be considered normal to the surface and discuss related concepts such as the gradient and the implications of their definitions. The scope includes theoretical reasoning and mathematical proofs.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that the normal direction to the surface defined by the function is the unit vector of the divergence, questioning how this has been proven.
  • Another participant counters that this cannot be true, asserting that divergence is a scalar quantity, not a vector, and asks if the original poster meant to refer to the gradient instead.
  • Several participants provide a similar proof that involves considering two nearby points on the surface and using the gradient to show that it is orthogonal to the displacement vector between those points, implying that the gradient is normal to the surface.
  • One participant expresses that making the proof rigorous would require tedious ε-δ analysis, while another suggests that the proof is straightforward and relies on the chain rule.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

There is disagreement regarding the initial claim about divergence being normal to the surface, with some participants asserting that it is incorrect and clarifying that the gradient should be considered instead. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the validity of the initial assertion about divergence.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the definitions and relationships between divergence and gradient, and the proofs provided are described as "handwavy," indicating that they may lack rigorous justification without further analysis.

swampwiz
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If I am given a function

f( x , y , z , ...) = C

then the normal direction to it is simply the (unit vector of the) divergence of the function. How has this been proven?
 
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It can't be proven because it is not true. Divergence is a number.

Did you mean gradient ?
 
Here's a handwavy proof that can be made rigorous:

Take two nearby points ##A## and ##B## on the surface ##f(x,y,z,...) = C##, let ##\Delta \vec{r}## be the displacement from ##A## to ##B##. Then the change in ##f## will be approximately given by ##f(B) - f(A) = \nabla f \cdot \Delta \vec{r}##. Since ##f## is constant on the surface, ##f(B) - f(A) = 0##. So we have:

##\nabla f \cdot \Delta \vec{r} = 0##

which implies that ##\nabla f## is orthogonal to ##\Delta \vec{r}##.
 
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stevendaryl said:
Here's a handwavy proof that can be made rigorous:

Take two nearby points ##A## and ##B## on the surface ##f(x,y,z,...) = C##, let ##\Delta \vec{r}## be the displacement from ##A## to ##B##. Then the change in ##f## will be approximately given by ##f(B) - f(A) = \nabla f \cdot \Delta \vec{r}##. Since ##f## is constant on the surface, ##f(B) - f(A) = 0##. So we have:

##\nabla f \cdot \Delta \vec{r} = 0##

which implies that ##\nabla f## is orthogonal to ##\Delta \vec{r}##.

Equivalently, if c(t) is a curve on the surface ##f(x,y,z,...)=C## then ##f(c(t) = C## so ##df/dt = 0##. By the Chain rule ##0=df/dt = ∇f⋅dc/dt##. Since ##dc/dt## is tangent to the surface for all such curves ##c(t)##, ##∇f## is normal to the surface.
 
Last edited:
BvU said:
It can't be proven because it is not true. Divergence is a number.

Did you mean gradient ?

Yes, I meant gradient.
 
stevendaryl said:
Here's a handwavy proof that can be made rigorous:

Take two nearby points ##A## and ##B## on the surface ##f(x,y,z,...) = C##, let ##\Delta \vec{r}## be the displacement from ##A## to ##B##. Then the change in ##f## will be approximately given by ##f(B) - f(A) = \nabla f \cdot \Delta \vec{r}##. Since ##f## is constant on the surface, ##f(B) - f(A) = 0##. So we have:

##\nabla f \cdot \Delta \vec{r} = 0##

which implies that ##\nabla f## is orthogonal to ##\Delta \vec{r}##.

This works for me. I presume that making this rigorous requires some tedious δ-ε analysis.
 
swampwiz said:
This works for me. I presume that making this rigorous requires some tedious δ-ε analysis.
Why? All you need is in #4. It is just the chain rule, which I assume you have already done your epsilon delta construction for.
 

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