About divergence, gradient and thermodynamics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the evaluation of the divergence of a quantity in thermodynamics, specifically the expression ##\nabla \cdot (\mu \vec F)##, where ##\mu## is a scalar function dependent on various variables such as temperature, position, and magnetic field. Participants explore the implications of this divergence in both theoretical and mathematical contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how to evaluate the divergence of ##\mu \vec F## and proposes a formula involving the gradient of ##\mu##, expressing uncertainty about the number of terms involved due to the dependencies of ##\mu##.
  • Another participant suggests writing the expression in Cartesian component form, confirming the initial formula for divergence and providing a more detailed breakdown of the first term.
  • A later reply emphasizes the importance of spatial derivatives in the evaluation of the divergence and expresses confusion about incorporating temperature into the derivative expression.
  • One participant introduces the chain rule to clarify how to express the gradient of ##\mu## when it depends on multiple variables, suggesting that the gradient can be expressed as a sum over the partial derivatives with respect to those variables.
  • Another participant acknowledges understanding the mathematical approach presented.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the formula for divergence and the application of the chain rule, but there remains some uncertainty regarding the treatment of temperature and other variables in the context of the gradient of ##\mu##.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the dependencies of ##\mu## and the variables involved, which may not be fully resolved. There is also a lack of consensus on how to incorporate all relevant variables into the evaluation of the gradient.

fluidistic
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At some point, in Physics (more precisely in thermodynamics), I must take the divergence of a quantity like ##\mu \vec F##. Where ##\mu## is a scalar function of possibly many different variables such as temperature (which is also a scalar), position, and even magnetic field (a vector field).

My question is, how to evaluate that divergence? I am tempted to set it equal to ##\nabla \cdot (\mu \vec F)=\nabla \mu \cdot \vec F + \mu \nabla \cdot \vec F##. I know it doesn't matter here, but it turns out that thanks to some physical fact, the divergence of ##\vec F## vanishes, so we can focus solely on the first term if we want.

And that is where my doubt lies. Precisely, the gradient of ##\mu##. Is it like a total derivative? So that if ##\mu## depends on temperature, magnetic field and position, then I should evaluate ##\nabla \mu## as ##\left ( \frac{\partial \mu}{\partial T}\right)_{\vec B,x}\frac{\partial T}{\partial x} + \left ( \frac{\partial \mu}{\partial x}\right)_{\vec B,T}\frac{\partial x}{\partial x} + \left ( \frac{\partial \mu}{\partial B_x}\right)_{B_y, B_z,x,T}\frac{\partial B_x}{\partial x}+... ##? I am a bit confused on the number of terms and whether what I wrote is correct.
 
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To answer the first part of the question, just write it out in Cartesian component form.

For the second part, you correctly determined the partial with respect to x at constant y and z.
 
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Chestermiller said:
To answer the first part of the question, just write it out in Cartesian component form.
Done, I confirm what I wrote, namely ##\nabla \cdot (\mu \vec F)=\nabla \mu \cdot \vec F + \mu \nabla \cdot \vec F##

However, more precisely I get (for the first term on the right side): ##\left( \frac{\partial \mu}{\partial x} \right) F_x + \left( \frac{\partial \mu}{\partial y} \right) F_y + \left( \frac{\partial \mu}{\partial z} \right) F_z##. As if only spatial derivatives mattered.

So, even if ##\mu## depends on temperature, I do not see how to reach what I wrote, say the term ##\left ( \frac{\partial \mu}{\partial T}\right)_{\vec B,x}\frac{\partial T}{\partial x}##. How could I reach this?
 
fluidistic said:
Done, I confirm what I wrote, namely ##\nabla \cdot (\mu \vec F)=\nabla \mu \cdot \vec F + \mu \nabla \cdot \vec F##

However, more precisely I get (for the first term on the right side): ##\left( \frac{\partial \mu}{\partial x} \right) F_x + \left( \frac{\partial \mu}{\partial y} \right) F_y + \left( \frac{\partial \mu}{\partial z} \right) F_z##. As if only spatial derivatives mattered.

So, even if ##\mu## depends on temperature, I do not see how to reach what I wrote, say the term ##\left ( \frac{\partial \mu}{\partial T}\right)_{\vec B,x}\frac{\partial T}{\partial x}##. How could I reach this?

Apply the chain rule: if \mu(u_1(x,y,z), \dots, u_n(x,y,z)) then
<br /> \frac{\partial \mu}{\partial x} = \sum_{i=1}^n \frac{\partial \mu}{\partial u_i} \frac{\partial u_i}{\partial x} and thus <br /> \nabla \mu = \sum_{i=1}^n \frac{\partial \mu}{\partial u_i} \nabla u_i.
 
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Thank you, I mathematically get it.
 

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