I What Is the Role of Ontology in the Interpretations of Quantum Mechanics?

[microsansfil]

Who knows? Quite possibly yes - there is no logical obstruction. I gave a plausible scenario in an Insight article.

Inside–Outside: The Misleading Divide

Patrick

 

[timmdeeg]

Inside–Outside: The Misleading Divide

Inside-Outside: The ontological interpretation

 

[timmdeeg]

The quest need not be decidable, we may have the freedom to choose. But there are better and worse choices, hence the discussion of the reasons for the various possible choices is useful.

But has a proponent of the MWI "the freedom to choose" a non-ontological meaning of the wave function? If not are there given a specific physical framework certain criteria which restrict said freedom to a certain choice?

 

[AlexCaledin]

Hmmm the most "ontological" things seem to be those Strings of the String theory - and they are pure math objects...

(So I am forced to believe in the Fundamental Consciousness)

 

[A. Neumaier]

But has a proponent of the MWI "the freedom to choose" a non-ontological meaning of the wave function? If not are there given a specific physical framework certain criteria which restrict said freedom to a certain choice?

Freedom is an emergent concept applying to social beings, not a concept of physics. Thus any foundation of physics compatible with its macroscopic laws is compatible with freedom.

 

[AlexCaledin]

We have some freedom because we are subprocesses (introduced by means of "physical" brains - but never completely confined to the brain processes ) of the Fundamental Consciousness that is possessing the freedom fundamentally.

 

[Lord Jestocost]

Freedom is an emergent concept applying to social beings,...

The framework of experimental physics requires a freedom of action as a constitutive presupposition.

In his book “Dance of the Photons”, Zeilinger puts it in the following way:

“ [W]e always implicitly assume the freedom of the experimentalist... This fundamental assumption is essential to doing science. If this were not true, then, I suggest, it would make no sense at all to ask nature questions in an experiment, since then nature could determine what our questions are, and that could guide our questions such that we arrive at a false picture of nature.”

 

[EPR]

Freedom is an emergent concept applying to social beings, not a concept of physics. Thus any foundation of physics compatible with its macroscopic laws is compatible with freedom.

I am not sure if there is anything that is not emergent. What is not emergent if 'classical' reality is? (given that classical reality is all that we are aware of). How does one think about anything if this is how the world really works at the fundamental level? It gets more bizarre instead of becoming clearer.

 

[lavinia]

Here is a quote from Gauss's Third proof of the Law of Quadratic Reciprocity (Found in "Source Book in Mathematics" by David Eugene Smith Dover Publications ) in which he talks about investigations of numbers.

The first section begins with this observation.

“The questions of higher arithmetic often present a remarkable characteristic which seldom appears in more general analysis, and increases the beauty of the former subject. While analytic investigations lead to the discovery of new truths only after the fundamental principles of the subject (which to a certain degree open the way to these truths) have been completely mastered; on the contrary in arithmetic the most elegant theorems frequently arise experimentally as the result of a more or less unexpected stroke of good fortune, while their proofs lie so deeply embedded in the darkness that they elude all attempts and defeat the sharpest inquiries…. These truths are frequently of such a nature that they may be arrived at by many distinct paths and that the first paths to be discovered are not always the shortest. It is therefore a great pleasure after one has fruitlessly pondered over a truth and has later been able to prove it in a round-about way to find at last the simplest and most natural way to its proof.”

So here he is experimenting with numbers to discover their hidden properties. IMO this is not pure deductive reasoning but is rather the same search for an understanding and a theory of observed objects as one finds in all science. Gauss called Mathematics the queen of the sciences.

Further this is not just software in a computer nor is it purely words found useful for physics.

 

[EPR]

Again I didn't make myself clear. Let me rephrase my question: can a mind exist without any hardware at all?

My take on it for whatever it's worth.

Can a mind experience events? Most certainly. Can a mind record events? Certainly not. A physical brain is necessary(matter). Matter records experiences and we are always giuded by past experiences. All our knowledge comes from the collections of past experiences or someone else's past experiences... and some extrapolations(imagination). I don't understood how imagination works yet - it must be the mind.
The point is we build everything through history and past experiences which are always encoded in physical matter(whether that would be brains or memory chips or wood markings or something else). A mind on its own is probably not going to be very efficient at making sense without memory(brain). If it could hypothetically exist without a brain.

PS It's probably not the brain that does the thinking but the mind(which superviens on the brain). An unconscious person cannot think. Or feel - although they are obviously still alive. This could be why we have been unable to sufficiently well understand how brains operate. Or freewill.

 

[PeterDonis]

Can a mind experience events? Most certainly. Can a mind record events? Certainly not. A physical brain is necessary(matter).

Huh? A physical brain is necessary to record events but not to experience them? This makes no sense to me. At the very least, the claim that a physical brain is not necessary to experience events is a very highly extraordinary claim that requires very highly extraordinary evidence, which I very strongly doubt that you have.

 

[microsansfil]

Huh? A physical brain is necessary to record events but not to experience them?

Does conscious experience derives from a material basis ?

Correlation isn't causality.

"To describe a certain neural process is not to live it, it is not to live the experience that goes with it. (...) You can have any brain process you want, yet you have absolutely no reason in principle to think that they should be associated with lived experience. "

Patrick

 

[PeterDonis]

Correlation isn't causality.

I'm not arguing that correlation is causality. The association between conscious experience and the presence of brains is much stronger than mere "correlation".

The statement in what you quote that "you have absolutely no reason" to think that your lived experience requires a brain, seems so outrageously false to me that I can't even begin to decide how to respond to it.

 

[EPR]

Huh? A physical brain is necessary to record events but not to experience them? This makes no sense to me. At the very least, the claim that a physical brain is not necessary to experience events is a very highly extraordinary claim that requires very highly extraordinary evidence, which I very strongly doubt that you have.

You certanly cannot think with just a physical brain(whatever complex brain you may ever come up with). You need mind(conscious experience). Brains operate on unconscious persons for long periods of time.

 

[PeterDonis]

You certanly cannot think with just a physical brain(whatever complex brain you may ever come up with).

I didn't say you can think with just a physical brain. I said you cannot think without a physical brain. What you are calling "mind" requires a physical substrate; the only one we know of at this point that can support a mind is a brain. At some point we might figure out how to make other physical substrates that can support minds (this is one way of stating the problem of artificial general intelligence), but we haven't yet, which is why I say you cannot think without a physical brain. That in no way means that any physical brain can think; obviously the brain needs to be in the proper state (e.g., alive, not unconscious, not anesthetized, etc.).

 

[A. Neumaier]

The lack of completeness theorem is indeed one of those unappealing properties of second order logic (in the standard semantics). The other is the compactness theorem, valid in first but not second order logic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compactness_theorem

On the other hand,

• Parikh, R.J.: Some results on the length of proofs. Transactions of the ACM 177, 29–36 (1973)

proved that there exist arithmetical formulas that are provable in first order arithmetic, but whose shorter proof in second order arithmetic is arbitrarily smaller than any proof in first order. In my view, short proofs are much more important than the compactness theorem.

 

[EPR]

What you are calling "mind" requires a physical substrate; the only one we know of at this point that can support a mind is a brain.

This is what it looks like, indeed from a strict physicalist pov. From a slightly more comprehensive viewpoint - if my body is quantum in nature(as is everything else) and all of my so called physical sensations are felt and experienced by the mind, why do we wonder that some physicists advocate for a radical departure from the assumed nature of existence(ala Newton)? Mind certanly plays a big role in how we perceive this reality - it certanly gives it all attributes through which we judge it(smell, color, taste, 'sound', light and dark, temperature, meaning, perhaps even 'touch'). All of these should be in inverted commas as they are subjective qualities.

 

[microsansfil]

Mind certanly plays a big role in how we perceive this reality - it certanly gives it all attributes through which we judge it(smell, color, taste, 'sound', light and dark, temperature, meaning, perhaps even 'touch'). All of these should be in inverted commas as they are subjective qualities.

Mind i don't know what is it. However smell, color, taste, sound, hot/cold, pain, ... are foremost first person experiences.

It is through these sensations in the first person that we become aware of ourselves and of what surrounds us. The rest, such as for example our theories, are derived, by inter subjectivity, from our logical steps (Scientific method) and deductions.

When we describe a physical phenomenon in relationship with our first person sensation (smell, color, taste, sound, ..) there is not the live the experience that goes with it. (...) .

The world that we perceive by our sensations is not the world as it could be in itself.

For Timothy H. Goldsmith ( http://www.ler.esalq.usp.br/aulas/lce1302/visao_aves.pdf ): It is true, as many youngsters learn in school, that objects absorb some wavelengths of light and reflect the rest and that the colors we perceive “in” objects relate to the wavelengths of the reflected light. But color is not actually a property of light or of objects that reflect light. It is a sensation that arises within the "brain".

Patrick

 

[bhobba]

Then the question is meaningless because by definition, numbers can't exist in the same sense as unicorns don't.

Different senses of existing? I am reminded of what Feynman said in his famous lectures: 'We can’t define anything precisely. If we attempt to, we get into that paralysis of thought that comes to philosophers… one saying to the other: you don’t know what you are talking about! The second one says: what do you mean by ‘talking’? What do you mean by ‘you’? What do you mean by ‘know’?'

Philosophy is a perfectly legit area of study - its just has not proven particularly of value in making progress in physics. Nor is it why in general we do not discuss it here - that has a bit of a history that is nothing to do with people here being a fan or not.

BTW things like different senses of existing are usually resolved by context without much difficulty.

Thanks
Bill

 

[physika]

"But color is not actually a property of light or of objects that reflect light. It is a <sensation> that arises within the brain.

Patrick

...and "objects" too ?

Are sensations in the mind ?...

 

[phinds]

...and "objects" too ?

Are sensations in the mind ?...

Don't carry it to the point of absurdity. Objects are real, as are light wave frequencies. We translate the frequencies into what we call color. The light waves can be discerned by non-organic instrumentation just as objects can be. They are all real. It's just that "color" is an interpretation of the reality, not the reality. The map is not the territory.

Also, the "color" you see and the "color" I see are not going to be exactly the same, but the light frequency measured by instrumentation doesn't change.

 

[Elias1960]

Philosophy is a perfectly legit area of study - its just has not proven particularly of value in making progress in physics. Nor is it why in general we do not discuss it here - that has a bit of a history that is nothing to do with people here being a fan or not.

I disagree. Philosophy was essentially banned from contributing whatever to physics. What can we say, in such a situation, about its value in making progress there? We can look at the exceptions, those few points where the ban was not successful.

And here we see the creation of the de Broglie-Bohm interpretation, the theorem of Bell and Kochen-Specker, and the experiments testing the Bell inequalities. Yes, Bell had to ask Aspect if he has a permanent position before giving a positive recommendation to try such an experiment - with good reasons. Suppression of philosophy in the consequence suppresses experiments too. See

Becker, A. (2018). What is real? The unfinished quest for the meaning of quantum physics. Basic Books, NY

for more about the history of this suppression. So the greatest progress made in the foundations of physics was based on philosophy.

What has been reached without philosophy? The SM. Of course, extremely important. But simply not related to the foundations. It was nothing but more of the same QED guided by particle accelerator results.

Or what can count in the SM as fundamental progress in comparison with QED? Only Wilson's effective field theory approach. Or better name it Wilson's effective field theory philosophy.

Which was a sort of negative philosophy - killing the philosophical pretenses of field theories as candidates for a fundamental theory, reducing them to the philosophically irrelevant domain of approximate theories. Essentially the same rejection of philosophy prevents the acceptance of this main philosophical lecture - those thinking QFT is fundamental now use Wilsonian methods to find this fundamental theory.

 

[bhobba]

Philosophy was essentially banned from contributing whatever to physics.

Philosophy is not and never has been banned (or suppressed) from contributing anything to physics here or elsewhere. That would be against one of the cornerstones of intellectual discourse - academic freedom. It has happened - the case I know best is when Gauss was scared to publish his findings on non-Euclidian geometry because of Kant's view on the matter - but when it does occur it is a blight on science, or any other area of discourse for that matter. It just has, as far as modern physics is concerned, proven not to be of much use. It was shut down here because when we did have a forum on it the person that moderated it left and it developed into an 'unruly' place with posts not up tp our standards. One day, if we get a suitably qualified moderator, it may come back, but until then it remains something we do not discuss except on rare occasions where it is necessary to understand the physics. This occurs mostly on the QM interpretations forum.

All complaining about our policy will do is lead to the thread being shut, and/or the offending post deleted. But one must ask the question - if you are that interested in philosophy why exactly do you want post on a forum whose rules keep it on a very tight leash? So I suggest as far as possible staying clear of it and answer the question - what is Ontology - which from a dictionary is 'a set of concepts and categories in a subject area or domain that shows their properties and the relations between them.', rather than espouse personal beliefs about some kind of 'conspiracy' against it in the physics community. And yes my mentors hat was on when I wrote that.

Thanks
Bill

 

[bhobba]

Objects are real, as are light wave frequencies.

I gave your post my like, and I personally agree with it, and I know a number of very knowledgeable posters here do as well. But it is not absurd to not believe it. It is one of the questions philosophy deals with. One can even take the view, as at least one poster here often does, it doesn't really matter as far as the physics goes.

Thanks
Bill

 

[Elias1960]

Philosophy is not and never has been banned (or suppressed) from contributing anything to physics here or elsewhere. That would be against one of the cornerstones of intellectual discourse - academic freedom.

Of course, it would be against academic freedom. But the modern physicist, who has a job security worse than the day laborer (if you don't find a new grant, you are out of science, while the day laborer will find jobs from time to time with some certainty), has no academic freedom at all. He has to follow mainstream fads to survive in science.

For what happened with those interested in the philosophical foundations of quantum theory in real life read the book I have referenced above.

It just has, as far as modern physics is concerned, proven not to be of much use.

Except that, as described above, the most important contributions to the foundations of modern physics came from philosophy.

Just to clarify: I do not complain against your policy decisions, feel free to ban whatever you don't like. I object to your claim that philosophy did not contribute to modern physics.

But one must ask the question - if you are that interested in philosophy why exactly do you want post on a forum whose rules keep it on a very tight leash?

I'm interested in fundamental physics, that's why I post in forums where physics is on-topic. If they ban essential and important parts of modern physics, I have to live with this and to restrict myself to what is allowed, such is life.

So I suggest as far as possible staying clear of it and answer the question - what is Ontology - which from a dictionary is 'a set of concepts and categories in a subject area or domain that shows their properties and the relations between them.', rather than espouse personal beliefs about some kind of 'conspiracy' against it in the physics community. And yes my mentors hat was on when I wrote that.

I have argued against your claim "Philosophy ... just has not proven particularly of value in making progress in physics" by presenting some points where philosophy has proven this value. What you have named 'sort of conspiracy' and "personal belief" I have supported with a reference to literature about the history of science.

 

[phinds]

But it is not absurd to not believe it.

I do understand that point of view but I'm an engineer and my limited brain just finds such arguments ridiculous. I'm w/ Feynman on this one.

the philosophy of science is as useful to scientists as ornithology is to birds

 

[bhobba]

I do understand that point of view but I'm an engineer and my limited brain just finds such arguments ridiculous. I'm w/ Feynman on this one.

A lot are - including me - it's just being carefull in ensuring people understand the situation. You will sometimes find I promote ideas not to my taste for fairness.

Thanks
Bill

 

[bhobba]

I'm interested in fundamental physics, that's why I post in forums where physics is on-topic. If they ban essential and important parts of modern physics, I have to live with this and to restrict myself to what is allowed, such is life.

You have said nothing that would lead to a ban. However this is a thread about what ontology means. I find your claims regarding the most important contributions to the foundations of physics have come from philosophers strange. During my time here the PBR theorem was published. It was from a computer scientist, a specialist in quantum information, and a quantum physicist. None were philosophers, and was recognised as a ground breaking paper from the beginning. Their careers seemed enhanced by it, not suppressed. I know the history of Bohm and Everett. Yes what happened to Bohm was rather 'nasty' (not because of his advocacy of DBB) and, as Gell-Mann said, Everett was a bit of an outlier as far as physics goes - he seemed to enjoy solving problems - the foundations of QM was just one problem he tackled. He published his papers and moved onto government work. He was scorned somewhat at first, but later, with increased interest in decoherence, was recognised as a seminal contribution to the area by many physicists. The point is I am not aware of philosophers making the progress in the area, but physicists.

Anyway we are veering way off the original question, so I think it's time to shut the thread. If you want to discuss who is making advances in the foundations of physics and their background a separate thread would at this stage be more appropriate.

Thanks
Bill