What is the shape of an electron?

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    Electron Shape
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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the nature and characteristics of electrons, specifically addressing questions about their shape, composition, and the implications of their mass. Participants explore theoretical perspectives, experimental findings, and the conceptual challenges posed by quantum mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether electrons are made of something, with one suggesting that if they were, it would lead to further questions about the composition of that substance.
  • Others assert that electrons are fundamental particles according to the standard model of particle physics, which holds that they are not made of smaller constituents.
  • There is a discussion about how electrons have mass, with references to the Higgs field and the nature of mass in particle physics.
  • Some participants express confusion about the relationship between charge, energy, and mass, indicating a lack of consensus on these concepts.
  • Recent research is mentioned, with conflicting interpretations about whether electrons can be described as having a shape, leading to further debate about their point-like nature versus potential spherical characteristics.
  • One participant mentions the concept of bootstrapping in particle physics, suggesting a focus on interchangeability rather than elementary properties.
  • There are references to articles claiming to measure the shape of electrons, with some participants questioning the accuracy of such claims and the implications for understanding electron structure.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the nature of electrons, with multiple competing views regarding their composition, mass, and shape. The discussion remains unresolved, with ongoing debates about the implications of quantum mechanics and experimental findings.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the complexity of quantum field theory, the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics, and the challenges in interpreting experimental results related to the shape and properties of electrons.

  • #31
Research has just been released that shows that the electron is very spherical indeed! :D

I think ZapperZ, you can have no argument after this! :D

http://fxn.ws/jHwfeQ
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #32
The Dude 321 said:
Research has just been released that shows that the electron is very spherical indeed! :D

I think ZapperZ, you can have no argument after this! :D

http://fxn.ws/jHwfeQ

Rather than reading 2nd hand report, why don't you read the ACTUAL paper?

The FIELD being detected shows no deviation from a spherical field. This means that in a high electric field, there were no charge redistribution on an electron, i.e. no presence of an electric dipole. This shows that we have no detected any "volume" to the electron.

Just because something is a "sphere" doesn't mean that it is also a point. An atom with an s-orbital electron is spherical. But put that atom in a strong-enough electric field, and you get distortion out of that spherical charge distribution. Why? Because there is a non-zero volume, and the charge can redistribute in response to the external field! This experiment is testing something even more stringent.

Zz.
 
  • #33
phoenixankit said:
Well, yeah, it is a lame Question...but the "it just does" part is what i did not expect from physics
If e's are just made of charges,charges are energy, and energy does not have mass

According to Maxwell theory charges are something like the opposite of energy. They are a discontinuity of polarization - in other words a place where energy can't move freely in response to stress. Energy might be especially concentrated around the discontinuity though.

In the model of the electron which corresponds to the Dirac equation, the charge moves around a small region somewhat randomly at the speed of light. But if you want to break down what an electron consists of, it's surely not just the charge but the effects of the charge and its motion in the region immediately surrounding the charge. It also appears to be the case that a free electron has a different configuration than a bound electron in an orbital of an atom.

Associated with the Standard Model is an unproven extension where most particles that had previously been thought of as elementary, including electrons, may consist of sub-quarks or preons. There is some experimental evidence indicating this possibility.
 
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  • #34
Electron is spherical: Nature

hi Guys,

I just caught wind of this updated result at Nature:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v473/n7348/full/nature10104.html

Seems to me that what's being measured is an attribute of the electron that, classically, we would attribute to a spherical mass. Do you think they're claiming the electron is a sphere? I can't imagine they are.

Cheers,

Kevin
 
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  • #35


homology said:
hi Guys,

I just caught wind of this updated result at Nature:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v473/n7348/full/nature10104.html

Seems to me that what's being measured is an attribute of the electron that, classically, we would attribute to a spherical mass. Do you think they're claiming the electron is a sphere? I can't imagine they are.

Cheers,

Kevin

nice to read

..."indicates that the electron is spherical at this improved level of precision"...



.
 
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  • #36


I'm not sure what your reply is? Yes I read the article, but we don't think of electrons are spheres, that's my question.
 
  • #37
Sixty years agou i asked my teacher of physics : what push electron to move without rest and are not they tired to asck for a rest ? The face of teacher becames crimson and he was so arrabiated that only ring saves me from physics punishment. The next lesson the teacher was quite calmer, he told: somebody asked me about electron moviment. I now respond : i don't know, and i am sure nobody knows.
Reading the post and the answers, not from laymans like me, but from physicist profesionist, i understand that in physics science, or in all sciences, are questions without answering. What is it
regretable are some responses full of authority which don't leave room for alternatives.
My questions are:
Is it electron a particle? Does it have a contur in space? What kind of conture is it? what is the radius of this conture? Has this conture to do with Compton radius? If it is a border in E.M.
field ---what determine this border? Why a point-- instate : nothing? As it confirmed that electron has mass: What is the density of this mass? What is Vg= ( G*M/R)^0.5? -- is it infinit, --is it = C. Is it electron a tiny so called bllack hole?
And too many questions for which my poor teacher will be answered : i don't know, nobody know for sure.
 
  • #38


spherically symmetric distribution charge.

size of electric dipole moment..
 
  • #40


They don't really measure the shape of the electron. What they measure is its electric dipol moment, and find that it is zero (or consistent with zero).
 
  • #41


YodaJedi: Dude, what are you doing? How does this begin to approach a conversation. Electrons in a potential well like that of a nucleus don't have spherically symmetric wavefunctions unless they're in the s-shell.

What about the electric dipole moment?

Maybe I should say more. It seems to me that talking about the electron being spherical is probably an expression. That they're not suggesting that they are little spheres. But that the motion of the particle is analogous to the motion of a perfectly symmetric spinning sphere. I just thought it was an interesting article and was seeing if anyone wanted to start a discussion on it.
 
  • #42


@Demystifier: ah, thanks for that. So then the reference to a sphere is an analogy then.
 
  • #43
profmo said:
Recent research shows that electrons are spheres.

http://www.npr.org/2011/05/25/136656087/what-shape-are-electrons-scientists-try-to-find-out

NPR... probably not a one stop science source. Anyways, I'd say the "shape" of a question is a meaningless question. It's a wavepacket whose \int_x \Psi(x)\Psi^*(x)dx=1[\latex]. Consider the hydrogenic atom, the electron has a finite, spherical "shape" in the s-orbital, and different, more exotic ones in p,d and f orbitals. If one imagines doing a charge distribution measurements one could blur out the probability distribution in any number of ways. Arguably the ONLY shapes it really can't take are plane wave or dirac delta distributions in the real universe. No electron can ever be truly free (the universe is never truly empty) or infinitely confined (there's only finite charge in the universe).
 
  • #44


homology said:
Seems to me that what's being measured is an attribute of the electron that, classically, we would attribute to a spherical mass. Do you think they're claiming the electron is a sphere? I can't imagine they are.

Read some of the posts on the preceding page of this thread.
 
  • #45
jtbell: My thread was merged with this one concerning the recent article in Nature. I didn't realize (my fault) that there would be other threads regarding this given how recent it was. So my response looks a lot more redundant than it is :P
 

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