What Is the Total Probability of Rolling a 6 with Maximum Shannon Entropy?

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around a probability problem involving a loaded six-sided die, where the probability of rolling a 6 is twice that of rolling a 1. Participants are exploring the total probability of rolling a 6 while maximizing Shannon entropy.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Assumption checking, Mathematical reasoning

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to derive the probabilities using Shannon entropy and questions where their reasoning may have gone wrong when comparing different probability distributions.
  • Some participants question the independence of the probabilities and suggest using constraints to express one probability in terms of another.
  • Others propose that the original poster should maximize the entropy as a single-variable problem by expressing certain probabilities in terms of others.

Discussion Status

Participants are actively engaging with the original poster's attempts, providing insights and alternative approaches. There is a recognition of the complexity of the problem, with multiple interpretations being explored regarding the relationships between the probabilities.

Contextual Notes

Constraints include the requirement that the sum of probabilities equals one and the specific relationship between the probabilities of rolling different numbers on the die. The discussion also reflects on the implications of these constraints for maximizing Shannon entropy.

ZetaOfThree
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Homework Statement


A 6 sided dice is loaded such that 6 occurs twice as often as 1. What is the total probability of rolling a 6 if the Shannon entropy is a maximum?

Homework Equations


Shannon Entropy:
$$S=-\sum_i p_i \ln{p_i}$$
where ##p_i## is the probability that we roll ##i##.

The Attempt at a Solution


We know that ##\sum_i p_i = 1 ## and we are given that ##p_1=p_6/2##. So $$p_2+p_3+p_4+p_5+\frac{3}{2} p_6 =1 \Rightarrow p_5 = 1-p_2-p_3-p_4-\frac{3}{2} p_6$$ There we can write the Shannon entropy as $$S=-\left( \frac{p_6}{2} \ln{\frac{p_6}{2}} + p_2 \ln{p_2}+p_3 \ln{p_3}+p_4 \ln{p_4}+(1-p_2-p_3-p_4-\frac{3}{2} p_6) \ln(1-p_2-p_3-p_4-\frac{3}{2} p_6) + p_6 \ln{p_6}\right)$$
$$=-\left( \frac{3 p_6}{2} \ln{p_6} + p_2 \ln{p_2}+p_3 \ln{p_3}+p_4 \ln{p_4}+(1-p_2-p_3-p_4-\frac{3}{2} p_6) \ln(1-p_2-p_3-p_4-\frac{3}{2} p_6) - \frac{p_6}{2} \ln{2}\right)$$
To find an extremum, we partial differentiate and set it equal to zero:
$$\frac{\partial S}{\partial p_2} = - \left(\ln{p_2} +1 - \ln(1-p_2-p_3-p_4-\frac{3}{2} p_6) -1 \right) = -\left(\ln{p_2} - \ln(1-p_2-p_3-p_4-\frac{3}{2} p_6) \right) =0$$
$$\Rightarrow \ln p_2 = \ln(1-p_2-p_3-p_4-\frac{3}{2} p_6)$$
Differentiating with respect to ##p_3## and ##p_4##, we find the same condition, so we conclude that ##p_2=p_3=p_4=p_5##. We now write the Shannon entropy as $$S=- \left(\frac{3 p_6}{2} \ln{p_6}+4p_2 \ln{p_2} - \frac{p_6}{2} \ln{2}\right)$$ So $$\frac{\partial S}{\partial p_6}= -\left(\frac{3}{2} \ln{p_6}+\frac{3}{2} - \frac{1}{2} \ln{2}\right) = 0$$
Therefore we find that ##p_6 = \frac{2^{1/3}}{e}##. But this is wrong, because if we plug in the probabilities into the Shannon entropy formula, we do not get a maximum. For example, we get a higher Shannon entropy if we plug in ##p_1=p_2=p_3=p_4=p_5=1/7## and ##p_6=2/7##. Where did I go wrong? Maybe I found a minimum or something? If so, how do I get the maximum?
Thanks for any help.
 
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It looks as if you put ##\displaystyle {d p_2\over d p_6}=0##. But isn't there a constraint that ##4p_2+{3\over 2}p_6 = 1 \ \Rightarrow \ 4d p_2 + {3\over 2}dp_6 = 0 ## ?
 
BvU said:
It looks as if you put ##\displaystyle {d p_2\over d p_6}=0##.
What step are you referring to? I don't think I used this.
BvU said:
But isn't there a constraint that ##4p_2+{3\over 2}p_6 = 1 \ \Rightarrow \ 4d p_2 + {3\over 2}dp_6 = 0 ## ?
Yes, you can use that condition to find ##p_2## after ##p_6## is found. So in the case above, we have ##p_1 = \frac{1}{2^{2/3}e}##, ##p_2=p_3=p_4=p_5= \frac{1}{8} \left(2- \frac{3 \sqrt [3] {2}}{e} \right)## and ##p_6 = \frac{\sqrt[3]{2}}{e}##.
 
The partial derivative gives you an optimum if p6 is independent of the other probabilities. It is not. You should get the correct result if you express p2 as function of p6 and then calculate the partial derivative.
 
ZetaOfThree said:
What step are you referring to? I don't think I used this.

Yes, you can use that condition to find ##p_2## after ##p_6## is found. So in the case above, we have ##p_1 = \frac{1}{2^{2/3}e}##, ##p_2=p_3=p_4=p_5= \frac{1}{8} \left(2- \frac{3 \sqrt [3] {2}}{e} \right)## and ##p_6 = \frac{\sqrt[3]{2}}{e}##.

Given that you know ##p_2=p_3=p_4=p_5##, and given the two other constraints you could write the entropy as a function of a single variable like ##p_6## and maximize that as a single variable problem. That should be straightforward.
 
mfb said:
The partial derivative gives you an optimum if p6 is independent of the other probabilities. It is not. You should get the correct result if you express p2 as function of p6 and then calculate the partial derivative.

Dick said:
Given that you know ##p_2=p_3=p_4=p_5##, and given the two other constraints you could write the entropy as a function of a single variable like ##p_6## and maximize that as a single variable problem. That should be straightforward.

Sounds about right. I did that, and got an answer I'm pretty sure is correct. Thank you all for the help!
 

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