What Is the True Nature of Randomness in Mathematics?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the nature of randomness in mathematics, exploring definitions, implications, and philosophical perspectives. Participants consider whether randomness exists in reality versus in mathematical constructs, the predictability of random processes, and the relationship between randomness and probability as sample sizes increase.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Philosophical

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that a number is random if every possibility has equal probability and future values cannot be predicted from past values.
  • Others argue that if a random distribution predicts results more accurately than any other model over infinite trials, then the process is truly random.
  • A participant questions the use of "random process" in defining randomness, suggesting that a uniform distribution from a non-random process does not imply true randomness.
  • There is a viewpoint that randomness may be a philosophical concept, with references to Einstein's assertion about determinism, suggesting that even if the universe is predetermined, it appears random to observers.
  • Some participants note that there are different kinds of randomness and tools to analyze it, emphasizing the complexity of the topic.
  • A participant distinguishes between pseudo-random and pure random numbers, indicating a nuance in definitions.
  • One participant expresses the belief that while randomness may not exist in reality, it is a useful concept in mathematics for approximating real-world situations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of definitions and perspectives on randomness, indicating that multiple competing views remain. There is no consensus on a singular definition or understanding of randomness.

Contextual Notes

Some definitions rely on assumptions about time and predictability, and there are unresolved questions regarding the nature of randomness in both mathematical and real-world contexts.

Loren Booda
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Please give your definition of mathematical randomness. Consider what randomness is, as opposed to what it is not.

Does randomness or order approach probability one as the number of samples approaches infinity?

Is our universe globally and/or locally random?

Are there different degrees of randomness?
 
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This thread is a perfect example.
 
I recommend your squirrel stop hitting the pipe and get back to running the wheel.

A negative answer is better than a nonsensical one.
 
Oh, this is something I've had long arguments about.

A basic definition would be that a number is random if every single possibility has an equal probability and if there is no way to predict future values from past values.
 
My definition of random (or rather, a random distribution): if you can predict the results of a random process with better accuracy than the random distribution, then the process is not random in the way you expected. If the random distribution predicts the result of an infinite number of trials more accurately than any other model, the process is truly random, and your distribution is correct.
 
ideasrule said:
My definition of random (or rather, a random distribution): if you can predict the results of a random process with better accuracy than the random distribution, then the process is not random in the way you expected. If the random distribution predicts the result of an infinite number of trials more accurately than any other model, the process is truly random, and your distribution is correct.

I think that reasoning has a slight flaw in that you use "random process" in the definition. Also, it only helps predict what is not random.

I could sit here with a coin and place it heads or tails on the table and record my decision. In the long run I'll probably have the same number of heads and tails and have a uniform distribution, but that doesn't mean it was randomly generated
 
jhae2.718 said:
Oh, this is something I've had long arguments about.

A basic definition would be that a number is random if every single possibility has an equal probability and if there is no way to predict future values from past values.

That definition seems to be under the assumption that the time is an always forward moving variable.
 
jobyts said:
That definition seems to be under the assumption that the time is an always forward moving variable.

Well until we have a time machine, it works for me.
 
randomness is simply events that you lack the ability to predict.

of course there are different kinds of randomness. and plenty of tools to analyze it. not only may probability distributions have different shapes, but successive samples may have different correlations.

but at some point, it comes down to a philosophical viewpoint, such as einstein saying god does not play dice with the universe. yet, even if everything in the universe is predetermined and proceeds along some algorithmic path, it still is very random to you and me because we are incapable of predicting it.
 
  • #10
42 is a random number.
 
  • #11
Wolfram said:
A random number is a number chosen as if by chance from some specified distribution such that selection of a large set of these numbers reproduces the underlying distribution.

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/RandomNumber.html
 
  • #12
http://xkcd.com/221/"
random_number.png
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #13
jarednjames said:
Well until we have a time machine, it works for me.

Then it's a pseudo random number, not a pure random number.
 
  • #14
This is an EXTREMELY interesting question. I believe that randomness does not exist in reality and that everything is determined in some way. Of course, there is no way to be certain of this statement.

Randomness does exist, however, in the mathematical world. In mathematics, we can define a random process by a collection of functions, called "random variables". The idea is that we catch this randomness somehow and make it less random by assigning probabilities to various events.
But, why should we care about randomness in mathematics if randomness does not even exist in the real world? Well, the real world is perhaps not random, but it certainly looks like it is! Thus, randomness in mathematics can offer a good approximation to the real life situation.
 

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