News What is the truth behind the Source vs. Content debate?

[Smurf]

That is a vastly different issue and you already know why.

I'm being completely honest Russ, but I don't see how it is different except for the details.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Your evidence against the book was that the author said the publisher mistook a per thousand symbol to mean per hundred. That means the total of 100 million presented by that book should have been 10 million. Now are you just saying the book is completely wrong and the government never killed anyone?

No.

HE states that the data in both cases showed elevated deaths in the time in question which worled out to 4.5 in 100 vs 4.5 in 1000, the correct figure.

When you talk about death rates which are actually supported at 4.5 deaths per 1000 in MacFarquha's book in the reference tables, you are talking about the NORMAL death rate not those just attributed to supposed government attrocities.

The death rate in MacFarquha's book shows that there was no abnormal death rate for the years highlighted as 'the great leap forward' they happened during the years of the drought induced famine. These are the deaths they attribute to Mao.

During those years, 40% of China's arable land was effected and was accompanied by orders of grain from Canada, the USA and Australia. In fact, the grain shipments to China from Canada negotiated at that time ended just this month.

Under the KMT, life expectancy was a meager 35 years. At Mao's death, the average life expectancy had increased to more than 70 years.

Also, the birth rates were skewed at this time. Anyone involved in famine research will tell you that women stop mensruating during famine ... They CAN'T have children. There is evidence that many women did not re-start their cycles until 1965. This skews birth rates lower which is also computed into many of the totals as 'deaths' (See how Rummel computes 'Democide' "Great Leap Forward (1959-63): 5,680,000 democides" which he computes as actual deaths plus the drop in births)

Critics of Rummel's calculations

Professional historians point out that Rummel's methods of calculating death tolls are highly controversial. He compares the statistical data before and after a crucial date and derives conclusions about the number of killings which occurred in between. However, he fails to establish evidence of the actual killing. His results are partially based on statistical data which may be prone to errors.

I might also point out to you that on Wikipedia Rummel asserts the total deaths in China were:

Mao's China (1949-1975) 40,000,000 (mostly famine)

The deaths attributed to famine? 34,500,000 for the ENTIRE MAO RULE FROM 1949 TO 1975.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide#Critics_of_Rummel.27s_calculations

 

[The Smoking Man]

That is a vastly different issue and you already know why.

Okay ... So the USA goes into China to 'liberate' the people using their 'mini-nukes' ... just how many deaths will be 'acceptible' to you?

Remember, there are only 70 million 'party members' which includes ALL government workers including postal workers.

Also, I would like you to show the differences that we 'know' when the majority of accusations hurled at the Chinese are almost the same as those hurled at Saddam ... WMD, Human Rights, ethnic cleansing, genocide etc.

The only difference? China has nukes. Korea has nukes.

I'd say that certainly does not bode well for negotiations with Iran.

Obviously, if you have nukes, America is willing to negotiate.

 

[loseyourname]

No.

Cool. You cleared some things up, but that was originally what you said when I first responded.

The deaths attributed to famine? 34,500,000 for the ENTIRE MAO RULE FROM 1949 TO 1975.

This is where I'm still confused. If you're asking us to buy these numbers now, that means 5.5 million were deaths attributed to government action. Or are you contending that these numbers are still inflated by overestimation of the birth rate?

 

[The Smoking Man]

This is where I'm still confused. If you're asking us to buy these numbers now, that means 5.5 million were deaths attributed to government action. Or are you contending that these numbers are still inflated by overestimation of the birth rate?

If you look at that post again, it attributes 5,680,000 to the Great Leap Forward alone.

It then goes on to say that this is the death rate for all of Mao's rule... in a country that had blossomed at the time to about 670 million.

So, yes people died.

Mao even stated that the number of deaths was 800,000 due to locally sanctioned executions of cruel landowners and Japanese collaborators.

Can we have an explanation of what you would assume the birth rate to be for 670 million people would be given that the population would be skewed to youth due to the improvement in the life expectancy rates? (ie. the elderly population would have been abnormally low due to death rates and therefore the number of Child baring women would have been high)

 

[loseyourname]

Smoking Man, all I was trying to figure out is if you contend that Mao was not responsible for killing citizens, or if you agree with the general western consensus that he did kill citizens. If I'm just being slow, you'll have to forgive me, but I still can't tell.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Smoking Man, all I was trying to figure out is if you contend that Mao was not responsible for killing citizens, or if you agree with the general western consensus that he did kill citizens. If I'm just being slow, you'll have to forgive me, but I still can't tell.

I contend that the administration DID kill 'citizens'.

"How many" though is what is in question. "Who did it" is another. And "WHY" is the third.

Heck ... Japan killed 22 million Chinese and the west rewarded them by rebuilding their country and economy.

 

[loseyourname]

I contend that the administration DID kill 'citizens'.

"How many" though is what is in question. "Who did it" is another. And "WHY" is the third.

Fair enough, but you have to understand that some people might get the impression that you refuse to acknowledge any wrongdoing, pretty much ever, on the part of China, and you still have that tendency to respond to criticism by essentially saying "yeah, well the US is worse."

Heck ... Japan killed 22 million Chinese and the west rewarded them by rebuilding their country and economy.

I'm sure the west would gladly nuke China, then rebuild the country and economy, if that's what you'd like! [An emoticon would be appropriate here, but I still refuse to use those damn things.]

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Heck ... Japan killed 22 million Chinese and the west rewarded them by rebuilding their country and economy.

The west, namely the US, also bombed them rather extensively and unleashed nukes on them. The Japanese also had their military power taken from them after they had conceded defeat in war and those responsable for war crimes, at least some of them, were handed over for trial.
This isn't exactly a reward for killing chinese people.

 

[The Smoking Man]

The west, namely the US, also bombed them rather extensively and unleashed nukes on them. The Japanese also had their military power taken from them after they had conceded defeat in war and those responsable for war crimes, at least some of them, were handed over for trial.
This isn't exactly a reward for killing chinese people.

LOL ... The Japanese also got a promise from the USA to maintain a military presence on the island and take over all defence of the Japanese Islands. Quite a substantial savings in defense spending.

Oh, and the people who WEREN'T actually tried for war crimes were those that did most of the stuff in China.

Look up Ishii and Unit 735.

You are aware that the bulk of most Japanese war criminals who were imprisoned were released by 1956?

One went on to become the Governor Of Tokyo and others ended up in the Diet? And ONE actually became the Prime Minister: Nobusuke Kishi.

Most of the staff of the chemical/biological units ended up starting Companies such as Green Cross, the largest Pharmaceutical in the world. Take a look at who the original board of directors were.

Then, after you get through with that, check out who a good many university deans were in Japan.

This is like Hitler's government ministers becoming the national leader and Josef Mengele becoming health minister. In fact, Ishii was responsible for killing 12 times the number of people as Mengele and in much more heinous ways!

A 137-page counterintelligence file from the National Archives which had been declassified, makes it clear that U.S. intelligence agents not only covered up war crimes against Americans, but also aggressively protected the architect of those crimes, Lt. Gen. Shiro Ishii.

"At the request of Nationalist Chinese officials who heard about "bacteriological experiments upon Chinese and Americans as human guinea pigs," the U.S. counterintelligence corps prepared a report on Ishii, the head of Unit 731, according to a July 24, 1947, memo. The document makes it clear that a high-level U.S. intelligence officer, Col. Philip Bethune, quashed the report after informing his agents that " no information is to be released to any agent as data on subject is classified as top secret." The agent who wrote the memo, identified only by the initials WSC, also wrote that "Col. Bethune desires no further action be taken in this case. No further action was taken."

Months later, on April 15, 1948, it was noted for the record that "It is of a highly sensitive nature, and that every precaution must be taken to maintain its secrecy."

A report dated April 18, 1947 from the legal section of Gen. MacArthur's headquarters, specifying that the Unit 731 investigation was "under direct Joint Chiefs of Staff order." "Every step, interrogation, or contact must be coordinated with this section," said the report by Lt. Neal R. Smith of Report of Investigation Division, Legal Section, " The utmost secrecy is essential in order to protect the interests of the United States and to guard against embarrassment."

Some of the reports were labeled "Commander in Chief" that leaves little doubt that US President Truman was informed of the events. President Truman also withdrew the 1925 Geneva Protocol outlawing Chemical and Biological Weapons from Senate ratification of protocol in 1947.

Vast archive of Japanese military records were in the hands of U.S. for 9 years after the war. The documents, first screened by the CIA, include hundreds of thousands of pages of War Ministry records from 1868 to 1942, Naval Ministry records from 1868 to 1939 and operational records of many units throughout the war including Unit 731. In 1948 the CIA turned over the records to the National Archives, with no indication of what, if anything, had been removed.

In 1957, all Japanese military records were ordered to be returned to Japan.

Not only were the perpetrators not punished after the war, Nobusuke Kishi, who had served as the wartime czar of Chinese Slaves and spent 3 years in Sugamo Prison as a Class A War Crimes suspect, even made all the way to became Prime Minister of Japan in 1957. The head of Unit 731, Shiro Ishii was permitted to continue medical research in Japan after the war. Ryoichi Naito, Ishii's right-hand man, founded Green Cross pharmaceutical companies, other Unit 731 leaders joined him there. Many directors of JNIH (Japan National Institute of Health) had served in biological warfare unit and involved in human experiments. Some went on to become Governor of Tokyo, Presidents of universities, Deans of medical schools, Heads of public health agencies, Head of Japan Olympic Committee, key position in Japanese drug and medical companies, lawmakers and industrialists.

Kobayashi Rokuzo - President - National Epidemic Prevention Institute
Nakaguro Hidetoshi - President - Defence Forces Medical School
Naito Ryoichi - President - Green Cross
Kitano Masaji - Chief Executive - Green Cross
Kasuga Chuichi - President - Trio-Kenwood
Yoshimura Hisato - President - Kyoto Municipal Medical University
Yamanaka Motoki - President - Osaka Municipal Medical University
Okamato Kozo - Dean - Kyoto University Medical
Tanaka Hideo - Dean - Osaka Municipal University Medical
Ishikawa Tachiomaru - President - Kanazawa University Medical
Kasahara Shiro - Vice president - Kitasato Hospital​

Japanese veterans, war widows, families of those killed in action, civilians employed by the military, and citizens mobilized for the war, all receive generous benefits from Japanese government under the entitlement program.

Japanese War Criminals received full military pensions and benefits from Japanese government,

But millions of their victims and families suffered, and continue to suffer in poverty, shame, chronic physical and mental pain, WMD Death Toll and WMD Injuries including Children continue to rise due to Japanese abandonded WMD weapons to this day

 

[The Smoking Man]

Fair enough, but you have to understand that some people might get the impression that you refuse to acknowledge any wrongdoing, pretty much ever, on the part of China, and you still have that tendency to respond to criticism by essentially saying "yeah, well the US is worse."

Yeah, I know that is how it comes off however, I usually find myself under the burden of having over a dozen people attacking at once and defend in a fairly offensive manner.

What I mean to say is that althought the Chinese government is guilty, they are not guilty of as much as is assumed by the west ... McCarthy wasn't the only irrational witch hunter in the USA and his decendents are a tad more creative.

I'm sure the west would gladly nuke China, then rebuild the country and economy, if that's what you'd like! [An emoticon would be appropriate here, but I still refuse to use those damn things.]

If you could tell me who the guilty parties were, I'll put the mini-nukes into the supositories.

But I don't condone the killing of innocents to 'free them'.

 

[russ_watters]

I'm being completely honest Russ, but I don't see how it is different except for the details.

One is a war, the other is not. One was collateral damage, the other was the intentional disruption of the lives of 700 million people. Most of the deaths in The Great Leap Forward were from a government caused famine. If you take farmers away from their fields, you can expect the output of those fields to drop. That's neglegent homicide on a massive scale.

The weather, TSM? That's beyond ludicrous. It is astonishing to me what little regard you have for human life. With that, I must bow out of this conversation. Facts and logic have abandoned it, so there isn't anything left to discuss. But do consider that even Mao admitted it was his fault! Why should you protect him, TSM?

"The chaos caused was on a grand scale, and I take responsibility. Comrades, you must all analyse your own responsibility. If you have to fart, fart. You will feel much better for it."

 

[russ_watters]

Wait, a direct response! I missed it before... There may be hope yet (how the heck did you do that, loseyourname?)...

I contend that the administration DID kill 'citizens'.

Ok, TSM, now take the next step: unequivocal condemnation of Mao's administration. I refer you to my earlier question: why do you avoid condemnation of this? Why do you dodge? Why do you keep saying 'but "they" were worse'? Why will you not judge the actions of your country on their own like I will with mine? What are you afraid of?

 

[russ_watters]

Yes, and not every (or, from what I've seen so far, necessarily any) of the chinese were killed by a government-caused famine and murdered. Didn't we just go over statistics that showed the death rate decreased??

I don't know, maybe you can prove it, I'd certainly like to see you do it if you can. And no, you only need to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt... the usual, you know?

I can't answer that for you, Smurf. Its really up to you whether what you have read about The Great Leap Forward leads you do believe the Chinese government was responsible for a famine. But do consider what company you are keeping - even Mao himself admitted it was his fault. The Chinese government admitted it was their fault (they ended the policies that led to it). Even TSM agrees (after much teeth-pulling)! You appear to be the only one who does not!

What, to me, is the most damning thing about the actions of the Chinese government then was the fact that the Great Leap Forward occurred after Stalin did almost exactly the same thing to the USSR! How could they not know the result would be the same? Answer: they didn't care. Industrialization was worth the lives of millions of Chinese (Russians).

 

[The Smoking Man]

Wait, a direct response! I missed it before... There may be hope yet (how the heck did you do that, loseyourname?)...

Well, Russ, he seems to have a skill you lack.

He enters into a conversation and asks a non-leading question like he doesn't have an agenda or an alternate shoe to drop.

You could learn a lot from loseyourname.

He and I may have got off to a rough start but once we tested each other out, I think there is a level of mutual respect now.

 

[The Smoking Man]

One is a war, the other is not. One was collateral damage, the other was the intentional disruption of the lives of 700 million people. Most of the deaths in The Great Leap Forward were from a government caused famine. If you take farmers away from their fields, you can expect the output of those fields to drop. That's neglegent homicide on a massive scale.

The weather, TSM? That's beyond ludicrous. It is astonishing to me what little regard you have for human life. With that, I must bow out of this conversation. Facts and logic have abandoned it, so there isn't anything left to discuss. But do consider that even Mao admitted it was his fault! Why should you protect him, TSM?

Damn Russ, didn't you read the rest of that article you quoted? Look just a couple of lines from your paragraph and read this:

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/great_leap_forward.htm

The excellent growing weather of 1958 was followed by a very poor growing year in 1959. Some parts of China were hit by floods. In other growing areas, drought was a major problem. The harvest for 1959 was 170 million tons of grain – well below what China needed at the most basic level. In parts of China, starvation occurred.

So, yes Russ, the weather DID play an important part to the deth of all the people at that time. 40% of all arable land was effected.

Don't get me wrong Russ, I love creative editing. You seem to be a master.

You'll not that when I quote, Russ, I don't cut out bits that prove the oppositions point... See my previous post on death rates and their sources.

If you also look at the complete post of the Speech at the Lushan Conference, you will see that he was NOT referring to what you think he was talking about:

When talking of responsibility, XXX and XXX both have some responsibility, as does XXX of the Ministry of Agriculture. But the one with the most responsibility is me. Old K'o, does any responsibility rest on you for your invention? (Old K'o said: 'Yes.) Was it lighter than mine? Yours is a question of ideology, mine of 10,700,000 tons and ninety million people going into battle. The chaos caused was on a grand scale and I take responsibility. Comrades, you must all analyse your own responsibility. If you have to sh!t, sh!t! If you have to fart, fart! You will feel much better for it.

When he says 90 million people going into battle, do you think he referred to 'the great leap'?

That is the problem of not going to the source and quoting others quoting Mao. You basically took a speech about something else and made it seem he was talking about responsibilities for something else.

Feel like a sh!t or a fart now Russ?

 

[The Smoking Man]

I can't answer that for you, Smurf. Its really up to you whether what you have read about The Great Leap Forward leads you do believe the Chinese government was responsible for a famine. But do consider what company you are keeping - even Mao himself admitted it was his fault. The Chinese government admitted it was their fault (they ended the policies that led to it). Even TSM agrees (after much teeth-pulling)! You appear to be the only one who does not!

So Russ, what makes you think that he is not making the same argument as I? The local estimate of deaths by Mao and the ones he admitted to were 800,000.

 

[Smurf]

I can't answer that for you, Smurf. Its really up to you whether what you have read about The Great Leap Forward leads you do believe the Chinese government was responsible for a famine. But do consider what company you are keeping - even Mao himself admitted it was his fault. The Chinese government admitted it was their fault (they ended the policies that led to it). Even TSM agrees (after much teeth-pulling)! You appear to be the only one who does not!

What, to me, is the most damning thing about the actions of the Chinese government then was the fact that the Great Leap Forward occurred after Stalin did almost exactly the same thing to the USSR! How could they not know the result would be the same? Answer: they didn't care. Industrialization was worth the lives of millions of Chinese (Russians).

I believe Mao was right when he admitted to causing the deaths of 800,000 people.

What I disagree on is how much we should blame the government for the Famine and wether we should condemn them for it. I have seen no conclusive evidence towards either of these in either my own research or any of the arguments presented here.

 

[russ_watters]

I believe Mao was right when he admitted to causing the deaths of 800,000 people.

What I disagree on is how much we should blame the government for the Famine and wether we should condemn them for it.

Those two statements are incompatible with each other.

 

[Smurf]

Care to explain how? They're about two different events.