What proof do we have that the universe is homogenous?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the concept of homogeneity in the universe, particularly how it can be proven or supported through observations and theoretical frameworks. Participants explore the definitions of isotropy and homogeneity, and the implications of these concepts in cosmology.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that a universe is isotropic if it appears the same in all directions at large scales, suggesting that this can be supported by current observations from galaxy surveys and the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB).
  • Another participant emphasizes that while we can measure distances and directions to galaxies, our observations are limited to the observable universe, which constrains our ability to verify homogeneity at larger scales.
  • A different viewpoint suggests that proving homogeneity is not feasible in physics; instead, it should be treated as a postulate that underpins theoretical frameworks, with the absence of evidence for inhomogeneity supporting its validity.
  • One participant proposes that if the universe is isotropic from our location and assumes no special position in the universe, it follows that it should also appear isotropic from other locations, leading to the conclusion of homogeneity.
  • A later reply references a quote from Barbara Ryden's book, linking isotropy around any point to the Copernican principle, which implies isotropy and thus homogeneity throughout the universe.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying viewpoints on the nature of proving homogeneity, with some suggesting it is a postulate while others explore observational implications. No consensus is reached on the definitive proof of homogeneity.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge limitations in their observations, particularly the constraints of the observable universe, which may affect the verification of homogeneity at larger scales.

Phys12
Messages
351
Reaction score
42
TL;DR
Definition given in a book I am following says that a universe that is homogenous looks the same from any location on large enough scales. How do we know this is true for our universe?
In the book, it states that a universe is isotropic if it looks the same regardless of which direction you look at large enough scales. This seems fairly easy to prove these days with observations from galaxy surveys and the CMB. However, how can we possibly prove that the university is homogenous (definition: the universe looks the same at large enough distances regardless of your location)?
 
Space news on Phys.org
Like you said, we make observations. We can measure the distances to galaxies along with their direction and from that build a model and look at the distribution of galaxies at different scales. Obviously our observations are limited to our own observable universe, so there's a limit to how well we can verify the homogeneity at larger and larger scales.
 
Phys12 said:
Summary:: Definition given in a book I am following says that a universe that is homogenous looks the same from any location on large enough scales. How do we know this is true for our universe?

In the book, it states that a universe is isotropic if it looks the same regardless of which direction you look at large enough scales. This seems fairly easy to prove these days with observations from galaxy surveys and the CMB. However, how can we possibly prove that the university is homogenous (definition: the universe looks the same at large enough distances regardless of your location)?
In physics you can't prove something like this. It must be a postulate - something you take as a fundamental assumption on which to base your theories. If the assumption is wrong then eventually you will find experimental evidence of this. What you can say is that currently there is no evidence for any lack of homegeneity or isotropy in the universe.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Vanadium 50 and Phys12
Phys12 said:
In the book, it states that a universe is isotropic if it looks the same regardless of which direction you look at large enough scales. This seems fairly easy to prove these days with observations from galaxy surveys and the CMB. However, how can we possibly prove that the university is homogenous (definition: the universe looks the same at large enough distances regardless of your location)?
As you said, we can observe that universe looks isotropic from our perspective. Now if you accept that there is nothing special about our place in the universe and that it also looks isotropic from other places, you can say that universe is homogeneous.
I like this illustration taken from Weinberg's "The First Three Minutes", explaining why the universe is homogeneous when it is isotropic:

IMG_20200806_080318.jpg
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Phys12
Understood, thank y'all so much!

Read this line 8 minutes after posting the above message:
""
Isotropy around any point in the universe, such as your navel, combined with the Copernican principle, implies isotropy around every point in the universe; and isotropy around every point in the universe does imply homogeneity
""

It's from Barbara Ryden's book, by the way, on intro to cosmology.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: lomidrevo

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 27 ·
Replies
27
Views
5K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
4K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
3K
  • · Replies 103 ·
4
Replies
103
Views
12K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K