What would a big crunch look like observationally?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the hypothetical scenario of the universe transitioning from expansion to a big crunch. Participants explore the implications for the laws of physics, the nature of contraction, and the observational effects on distant objects. The conversation touches on theoretical frameworks, particularly the Friedmann-Lemaître-Robertson-Walker (FLRW) model, and the assumptions inherent in such models.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether the laws of physics would need to change for a contracting universe to be viable, suggesting that a different energy composition might suffice.
  • Others argue that the question of how the laws of physics would change is inherently vague and depends on the specifics of any proposed changes.
  • There is a discussion about whether the transition from expansion to contraction would occur instantaneously or if it could vary across different regions of the universe, with some suggesting that simultaneity is a convention in relativity.
  • Participants note that in a contracting FLRW universe, contraction would begin at the same cosmological time if certain density conditions are met, but the clarity of this scenario is debated.
  • Some express skepticism about the FLRW model's ability to account for local differences in expansion rates, suggesting that there could be variations not captured by the global view of the model.
  • Concerns are raised about the observational effects for distant objects as distances decrease, with implications that light from certain regions may never reach observers before the crunch occurs.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether the laws of physics must change for a contracting universe or how contraction would manifest across different regions. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of local versus global views in cosmology.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on the FLRW model's assumptions, the ambiguity in defining local differences in expansion rates, and the unresolved nature of how contraction would affect observational phenomena.

Jarvis323
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Suppose one day the expansion of the universe halted, and then reversed towards a big crunch.

1) Do the laws of physics change? How?

2) Would it be the case that the change from expanding to contracting occurs everywhere instantaneously, or could some parts of the universe begin contracting before others?

2) Supposing light propagates the same way that it does now, what would be the observational effects for objects that are far enough away, that the distances between us and them decreases faster than the speed of light?
 
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Jarvis323 said:
Suppose one day the expansion of the universe halted, and then reversed towards a big crunch.

1) Do the laws of physics change? How?
So the question is essentially "Suppose the laws of physics change. How would they change?" The tautological answer would be that it depends on how you changed the laws of physics.

A better way of phrasing your question might be to ask how things would appear in a contracting FLRW universe.

Jarvis323 said:
2) Would it be the case that the change from expanding to contracting occurs everywhere instantaneously, or could some parts of the universe begin contracting before others?
There is no such thing as "instantaneously" as simultaneity is a convention in relativity and not something that is measurable. In a FLRW universe that has a sufficient mass or radiation density to start contracting, the scale factor is a global property and contraction would start at the same cosmological time. But the FLRW universe has many assumptions that go into it and so the question is not really clear.

Jarvis323 said:
2) Supposing light propagates the same way that it does now, what would be the observational effects for objects that are far enough away, that the distances between us and them decreases faster than the speed of light?

You will not be able to observe them "now". You are observing what is on your past light cone. Depending on the exact contraction of the universe, which would be governed by the Friedman equations, there may be regions of the universe from which the light will never reach you before the crunch.
 
Orodruin said:
So the question is essentially "Suppose the laws of physics change. How would they change?" The tautological answer would be that it depends on how you changed the laws of physics.

A better way of phrasing your question might be to ask how things would appear in a contracting FLRW universe.

I suppose what I meant, is whether the laws of physics necessarily have to change in order for a contracting universe to workout. Or, based on what we know, is there a reason to expect that the laws of physics would change in such a case. I suppose that the answer is, essentially, we have not much of a clue? We are already out pretty far on a limb with current theory. I would prefer not to phrase the question absolutely in terms of an FLRW universe if I had a choice. I suppose very few people exist that could give insightful answers outside of FLRW frameworks though.

There is no such thing as "instantaneously" as simultaneity is a convention in relativity and not something that is measurable. In a FLRW universe that has a sufficient mass or radiation density to start contracting, the scale factor is a global property and contraction would start at the same cosmological time. But the FLRW universe has many assumptions that go into it and so the question is not really clear.

I don't like to ascribe to the opinion that measurability or crude theory are arbitrators of existence. I realize FLRW is a model that uses fairly major simplifications that certainly hold only at large scales. So is it likely that, in reality, there are differences on smaller scales that could result in local differences in expansion rates throughout the universe? Then, if so, there could be differences, in reality (as opposed to according to FLRW), when contraction begins depending on location? In that case, I assume you would have interesting things happening locally, and wonder what those would be.
 
Jarvis323 said:
is whether the laws of physics necessarily have to change in order for a contracting universe to workout.
This is a better defined question and the answer is no. What you would need is a different energy composition of the universe.

Jarvis323 said:
Or, based on what we know, is there a reason to expect that the laws of physics would change in such a case.
Now you fell back into the question ”based on the laws of physics, is there a reason to change the laws of physics”. There are some instances where you take a theory to its limit and discover inconsistencies. A contracting universe is not one of those.

Jarvis323 said:
in local differences in expansion rates
You would have to define what you mean by this. Without the global view, the split of spacetime into space and time does is not necessarily well defined and without such a split your question lacks some of the necessary foundations.
 
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Orodruin said:
You would have to define what you mean by this. Without the global view, the split of spacetime into space and time does is not necessarily well defined and without such a split your question lacks some of the necessary foundations.

So essentially, FLRW is a global view which lays foundations for slicing up spacetime, but it also assumes away local differences. So this is why we don't have any good physics for describing these aspects of the universe?
 

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