When does infinitesimal notation break down?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the use of infinitesimal notation in mathematics and physics, particularly focusing on when this notation may break down. Participants explore the implications of treating derivatives as fractions and the conditions under which this practice is valid or problematic.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that while infinitesimal numbers can often be manipulated like real numbers in physics, there is criticism of Leibniz's notation and questions when it might not work.
  • Another participant suggests that infinitesimal notation breaks down in cases where curves have tangents parallel to the y-axis and in functions of multiple variables where the order of differentiation is significant.
  • A further contribution clarifies that using dy/dx as a fraction in separation of variables is not truly fraction arithmetic but rather a shortcut involving the chain rule, emphasizing that this method is justified under certain conditions.
  • A later reply expresses appreciation for the clarification provided about the use of the chain rule in this context.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the limitations of infinitesimal notation, with some highlighting specific scenarios where it may fail while others focus on its utility in physics. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the broader implications of these limitations.

Contextual Notes

There are indications of missing assumptions regarding the conditions under which infinitesimal notation is applied, as well as the potential for ambiguity in the treatment of derivatives as fractions.

jaydnul
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Everything I've encountered in physics so far allows infinitesimal numbers to be manipulated as real numbers. But there has been much criticism towards Leibniz's notation, and I assume it is for a reason. When in mathematics will the infinitesimal notation not work? Including treating [itex]\frac{dy}{dx}[/itex] as a fraction to solve differential equations and such. Does it ever breakdown? If so, are those purely mathematical, scholarly problems, or is there places where the notation won't work in physics?
 
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It breaks down if you have curves with a tangent parallel to the y-axis, for example.
And there are functions of multiple variables where the order of differentiation matters.

I don't think I ever had that problem with physics-related equations.
 
When you use dy/dx as a fraction in separating variables, you are not really doing fraction arithmetic. You are using the chain rule, and the separation of dy and dx is a shortcut way of writing that. To see that, let's consider the example dy/dx = y. Using separation of variables you would write dy/y= dx. Then you integrate both sides, the left with respect to y and the right with respect to x (also a rather suspicious maneuver) and you get log y = x + c or [tex]y = Ae^x[/tex] where A is some constant. This is a handy way to get the right answer, but here is what you are really doing:

Let y = f(x). Your equation dy/dx = y can be rewritten in this notation as f'(x) = f(x). This gives us f'(x)/f(x) = 1. Integrating boths sides with respect to x (a clearly legitimate maneuver) we get

log f(x) = x + c
log y = x + c and so
[tex]y = Ae^x[/tex]

The chain rule comes in when you observe that [tex]\frac{d}{dx}logf(x) = f'(x)/f(x))[/tex].

So the general answer about when you can split dy and dx and treat dy/dx as a fraction is that it is justified when it is a shortcut way to use the chain rule.
 
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Wow great point. That really helps a lot
 

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