When talking cosmology what exactly is a manifold, is there any

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    Cosmology Manifold
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of manifolds in cosmology, specifically questioning their definition and whether there is observational evidence supporting the idea that our universe is a manifold. The scope includes theoretical considerations, mathematical definitions, and implications for cosmological models.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Conceptual clarification, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants define a manifold as an n-dimensional space and discuss its implications in cosmological theories, including holographic and multiverse models that may require higher-dimensional manifolds.
  • One participant references the shape of the universe, noting that the detectability of its topology depends on spatial curvature, suggesting that a flat topology might be undetectable.
  • Another participant argues that the concept of a manifold is a mental construct that represents the universe, implying that the universe's existence is independent of mathematical models.
  • A participant questions what alternatives exist if the universe is not a manifold, discussing the implications of boundaries and varying dimensions in different regions of space.
  • One participant mentions that General Relativity describes spacetime as a manifold and acknowledges its accuracy while expressing skepticism about whether the universe perfectly fits this mathematical model.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of manifolds in relation to the universe, with no consensus on whether the universe can be accurately described as a manifold or what the implications of that might be. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the observational evidence for or against the manifold concept.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in detecting the topology of the universe based on curvature and the challenges in reconciling mathematical models with physical reality. There is also an acknowledgment of the potential inaccuracies of General Relativity at small scales.

wolram
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When talking cosmology what exactly is a manifold, is there any observational evidence that we live in one ?
 
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in general a manifold is an n-dinensional space:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifold

there's been some discussion that we live in a holographic universe or that we are part of a multi-verse ie many universes based on the many worlds interpretation of QM, no proof but interesting discussions. these both require n-dimensional manifolds beyond our current spacetime view.
 


From wiki, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_Universe.

For a flat spatial geometry, the scale of any properties of the topology is arbitrary and may or may not be directly detectable. For spherical and hyperbolic spatial geometries, the curvature gives a scale (either by using the radius of curvature or its inverse), a fact noted by Carl Friedrich Gauss in an 1824 letter to Franz Taurinus.[6]
The probability of detection of the topology by direct observation depends on the spatial curvature: a small curvature of the local geometry, with a corresponding radius of curvature greater than the observable horizon, makes the topology difficult or impossible to detect if the curvature is hyperbolic. A spherical geometry with a small curvature (large radius of curvature) does not make detection difficult.
Analysis of data from WMAP implies that on the scale to the surface of last scattering, the density parameter of the Universe is within about 0.5% of the value representing spatial flatness.

So the most preferred model a flat topology would be undetectable ?
 
Last edited:


wolram said:
When talking cosmology what exactly is a manifold, is there any observational evidence that we live in one ?

I think this question is fundamentally backwards. A manifold is something we have created in our minds, while (I think most would agree), the universe really exists. It is rather that a manifold seems to well represent the space we live in.
 


wolram said:
When talking cosmology what exactly is a manifold, is there any observational evidence that we live in one ?

If it's not a manifold, then what is the alternative? For example, a manifold with boundary is not a manifold -- is that the kind of thing you have in mind? The evidence that it's not a manifold with boundary is that we have observed lots of places in the universe, and none of them look like boundaries.

Another possibility would be that it's not a manifold because some regions have 4 dimensions, and other regions have some other number of dimensions. The definition of a manifold requires that the space have the same dimensionality everywhere. Again, the evidence would be that we don't observe any regions of the universe that seem to have the wrong number of dimensions.

I don't understand how your #3 relates to this question at all.
 


In General Relativity, the mathematical object which describes the space-time is a manifold. Our experimental measurements of General Relativity show that GR is an extremely accurate description of how the universe behaves.

Now, is our universe really the idealized mathematical object of a manifold? Well, my guess is probably not, because General Relativity is probably not entirely accurate, particularly at very short distances. It is, however, clearly an extremely good approximation.
 

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