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Where are the Higgs boson particles

  1. Mar 17, 2008 #1

    jal

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    Where are the Higgs boson particles supposed to be located?
    Is there one in the electron, neutrinos, proton, neutron?
    jal
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Mar 17, 2008 #2

    malawi_glenn

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    everywhere, it is a scalar field.

    It is similar to the question if the leptons carries Z and W bosons inside.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2008
  4. Mar 17, 2008 #3

    jal

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    hummmm!
    Let see... scalars are massless or weakly interacting.
    A higgs particle has mass. Therefore, it is no longer a scalar.
    Saying that it is "a massive scalar particle" is mixing apples and oranges.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson
    The best explanation that I have see, which tries to explain how the Higgs bosons can "create mass", is the work by A. Garrett Lisi and E8.
    http://arxiv.org/abs/0711.0770
    However, I cannot figure out how this scalar can be "one fits all".
    He addresses the questions for the neucleons but he nor anyone else have anything to say for electrons, and neutrinos.
    jal
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2008
  5. Mar 17, 2008 #4
    What !? Why do you say that !? The pions are (pseudo)scalars for instance and very strongly interacting.
    Ah I get it, this is a joke :tongue2:
    I beg to differ. Many people have a lot to say about hadrons.
     
  6. Mar 18, 2008 #5

    malawi_glenn

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    yes Jal, the higgs bosons are ought to belive only 'explain' the mass of the weak interaction bosons (Z and W). But some also thinks it can explain the fermion masses.

    See also this thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=218500&highlight=Higgs

    The thing is, that particles dont live inside each other, that is a very naive view.
     
  7. Mar 18, 2008 #6

    jal

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    Hi humanino !
    I realize that the Higgs field and the Higgs boson are still theoretical and only one out of many possible models.
    I looked up all of the words that you used.
    scalars at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalars ,
    I just want to keep things simple. If it’s massless it can move at the speed of light.
    If it has mass then it is subluminar.
    pions at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pion ,
    pseudoscalar at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscalar_(mathematics) scalar fields at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalar_field .
    Hadrons at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadrons
    Then I looked up
    Lepton http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepton
    This is where I found the electrons and the neutrinos.
    Here is what they said, “The masses of the leptons also obey a simple relation, known as the Koide formula, but at present this relationship cannot be explained.”

    How is the Higgs particle mechanism responsible for the mass of electrons, neutrinos and as well as the mass of ALL particles?
    Should I, also, be asking if Higgs mechanism has anything to do with Dark Matter and Dark Energy?

    ========
    Under scalar fields it says,
    “ In the Standard Model of elementary particles, a scalar field is used to give the leptons their mass, via a combination of the Yukawa interaction and the spontaneous symmetry breaking. This mechanism is known as the Higgs mechanism [1]. This supposes the existence of a (still hypothetical) spin 0 particle called Higgs boson.”

    “Scalar fields are supposed to cause the accelerated expansion of the universe (inflation [8]), helping to solve the horizon problem and giving an hypothetical reason for the non-vanishing cosmological constant of cosmology. Massless (i.e. long-ranged) scalar fields in this context are known are inflatons. Massive (i.e. short-ranged) scalar fields are proposed, too, using for example Higgs-like fields (e.g. [9)”
    =======
    Hi malawi_glenn
    Yes, I have been following the different threads.
    jal
     
  8. Mar 18, 2008 #7
    They are most favored in the current paradigm.
    A scalar particle just refers to a particle without spin. The Higgs boson is unique in the sens that it is a fundamental particle without spin.

    Let us not concentrate on neutrinos for now as they would just complicate the story. Fundamental matter particles (fermions) are the quarks and leptons. The gauge principle, which is a powerful symmetry principle based on the (classical electromagnetism, later generalized to a quantum) idea that the wave function absolute phases (as a complex number) are arbitrary at every point in space-time, forbids mass terms in the lagrangian. The mass terms can be constructed from a (Higgs) scalar field. This Higgs scalar field however is first motivated by the "force" sector of the model, describing gauge bosons.

    What we have been refering to sometimes is the contradistinction between "normal" mass around us, which is not explained by the Higgs boson, and fundamental particles mass terms in the lagrangians (which are very important for the model to make sens).

    The Dark Matter and Energy are yet two other very distinct and important puzzles from Cosmology. Particle physicists of course show interest in those as well. But the scalar inflaton you are refering to is not the same (to my inderstanding) as the Higgs boson(s).

    Sorry if my post is too general. I am not sure what is the level of the discussion here.
     
  9. Mar 18, 2008 #8

    jal

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    Zapper is looking over my shoulder. :cool:
    First, my thanks and respect for taking all of the time that you do to try to communicate with all levels of amateurs. It's a challenging task.
    My wiki references are to help communication with other amateurs.

    I agree.
    The word "scalar" seems to over used. Can we generalize it as I did...
    I've got to do "living chores". I'll be back later.
    Thanks
    jal
     
  10. Mar 18, 2008 #9

    jal

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    Hi humanino !
    I guess that I should have started by asking a different question and not worry about the mass of neutrino and electrons.
    How did the massless scalars aquire mass and become Higg particles which then give mass to the other massless scalars which then become particles.?
    I could not find any papers in arXiv.org that dealt with this question.
    jal
     
  11. Mar 20, 2008 #10

    blechman

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    There is nothing bad about a scalar field getting a mass - unlike fermions or gauge bosons, there is no symmetry to forbid it, discounting things like "supersymmetry". In fact, the right question to ask is: "Why is the scalar Higgs boson mass so SMALL?" Naively, you would expect it to be close to the Planck mass due to quantum corrections! That's where the "hierarchy problem" of the Standard Model appears.

    So in summary: scalar particles normally *WANT* to be as heavy as they could be. So there's no puzzle here.
     
  12. Mar 20, 2008 #11

    jal

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    Hummmm!
    You said, "scalar particle". From what I have learned, scalars move at the speed of light and particles are sub-luminar. How was this change achieved?
    jal
     
  13. Mar 20, 2008 #12

    Vanadium 50

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    I don't think what you've learned is correct. Scalars don't necessarily move at the speed of light, and if you mean "subluminal", the second part of your sentence doesn't make logical sense since scalars - shorthand for "scalar particles" - are a subset of particles.
     
  14. Mar 21, 2008 #13

    blechman

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    MASSLESS particles (scalars, spinors, vectors, tensors, etc) move at the speed of light. Anything with a mass (scalars, spinors, vectors, tensors, etc) does not.
     
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