Where did all the physics ladies go?

[jz92wjaz]

I did comment on the first two adverts, because I think it is wise for people to avoid applying for a position that is unnecessarily restricted to a race or gender. Those things shouldn't matter. Those adverts are problematic and none of them should exist.

 

[b.shahvir]

I did comment on the first two adverts, because I think it is wise for people to avoid applying for a position that is unnecessarily restricted to a race or gender. Those things shouldn't matter. Those adverts are problematic and none of them should exist.

Wisely said indeed but from personal experience I have observed several companies bend the rules in the name of gender diversity to 'accommodate' females in traditionally male dominated jobs. For eg. female engineers are mostly restricted to report making/desk jobs or sales marketing jobs, etc. and not given odd shifts or made to operate heavy electrical equipment without supervision. (some HV switchgears are really tough to operate even for men and forces one to re-evaluate one's fitness levels)This may not be the case everywhere or in all industries but from personal observation. So mostly it's just a PR exercise to satisfy the HR dept.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Women just as welcome to STEM as men? I can tell you about the times I was denied based on prejudices, the sexist comments I receive. I rather not go there. Equal opportunity? No, definitely not.

Monique, I have a few questions to ask you about this:

(1) Had you known beforehand that you would experience the instances of prejudices and sexist comments while working in science, would you still have considered pursuing a science career?

(2) One could argue that women in almost every professional field have experienced prejudice, sexist comments, and other such issues of some sort, with the exception of the few female-dominated jobs/professions. Are STEM jobs worse in this respect compared to other professional fields?

(3) To your knowledge, would you say that certain STEM fields are more hostile to women in terms of potential career advancement or a hospitable work environment than others?

 

[Monique]

I did comment on the first two adverts, because I think it is wise for people to avoid applying for a position that is unnecessarily restricted to a race or gender. Those things shouldn't matter. Those adverts are problematic and none of them should exist.

I fully agree.

 

[Monique]

(1) Had you known beforehand that you would experience the instances of prejudices and sexist comments while working in science, would you still have considered pursuing a science career?

Yes, because it's all I ever wanted. Now having experienced it I am seriously beginning to doubt a future, but then I'm faced with a lot of politics and legal stuff that is completely distracting me from the science. I'm feeling like dropping out, which I never could have imagined.

(2) One could argue that women in almost every professional field have experienced prejudice, sexist comments, and other such issues of some sort, with the exception of the few female-dominated jobs/professions. Are STEM jobs worse in this respect compared to other professional fields?

I have no way of knowing. I did work in a garage repairing car bodyworks for a while, I can imagine that is a tough world to get accepted in. I do notice that at social events with many people in -for instance- the marketing field / advertisement present, that there is not a single person who wants to know what I do for a living. The question does gets asked, but only to males. I'm sure it is present everywhere.

(3) To your knowledge, would you say that certain STEM fields are more hostile to women in terms of potential career advancement or a hospitable work environment than others?

I have no way of knowing.

Those are good thought-provoking questions, thanks for asking.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Yes, because it's all I ever wanted. Now having experienced it I am seriously beginning to doubt a future, but then I'm faced with a lot of politics and legal stuff that is completely distracting me from the science. I'm feeling like dropping out, which I never could have imagined.Those are good thought-provoking questions, thanks for asking.

Not a problem at all! I am sorry to read, however, that you're seriously doubting a future in science, and feeling like dropping out. Have you given much thought towards what other careers you may be thinking of pursuing? I know (from your PF profile) that you have a PhD in developmental biology/neuroscience, so at least one option that may be open to you is to work in the pharmaceutical or biotech industries. For example, GSK has a large research facility based in Belgium (which for a Dutch citizen as yourself is right next door).

 

[jack476]

On face value to say men & women are equal is like saying electrons = protons, negative charge = positive charge, North pole = South pole

Sure, they may point in different directions...but the magnitude of their respective charges and magnetic moments are the same ;)

 

[b.shahvir]

I did comment on the first two adverts, because I think it is wise for people to avoid applying for a position that is unnecessarily restricted to a race or gender. Those things shouldn't matter. Those adverts are problematic and none of them should exist.

I may be contradicting my own viewpoint, but technically there is no problem with the last advert as a female CEO might prefer a female secretary or admin assistant. After all, one has to feel comfortable with a sub-ordinate to work with.

Sure, they may point in different directions...but the magnitude of their respective charges and magnetic moments are the same ;)

Nicely pointed out but I was referring to absolute equality & not relative.

 

[b.shahvir]

Prejudice & politics is a result of power dynamics which equally affects both genders. For eg., if I were to encounter a tiger at this very moment, I will be a victim of inter species prejudice by the beast who will consider me as food. Going by popular conventional thinking, I will expect the tiger to treat me with respect as equal or even in high regard since as a human being I am intellectually superior to him. But common sense will eventually prevail & my focus will quickly shift from conventional thinking to self preservation. Applying conventional thinking in this case will be like expecting the tiger not to eat you just because you are a vegetarian! Prejudice & politics will only end if we have robots for bosses or colleagues.

Below is a social experiment video depicting public prejudice against men who are subject to gender violence by women

 

[zoki85]

When a women physically abuse a man, it must be a *true love*:

 

[b.shahvir]

When a women physically abuse a man, it must be a *true love*:

Lol but as far as I know this is some kind of sexual fetish.

 

[zoki85]

Lol but as far as I know this is some kind of sexual fetish.

Some have fetish for physics ladies and some for physical ladies:p

 

[b.shahvir]

Beats me where this thread is heading

 

[jz92wjaz]

One of my friends was put in the hospital by another woman. Violence certainly isn't reserved to men. Stereotypes that allow women to abuse men should be challenged, just like stereotypes that result in mistreatment of women in science need to be challenged.

I don't like electron proton analogy because it puts people into one box or the other with no middle ground. If you want to talk about equality, no two people are the same. Small gender differences do exist, but when those differences are emphasized, it can be very frustrating and alienating to women in science who've been directly harmed by gender stereotypes and bias. You can't reason with a wild animal that is ready to pounce, but you can reason with other human beings.

We will never be free of bias. However, it's possible to reduce that bias by making people aware of it.

Racial bias, unfortunately, puts some of the negative stereotypes of both genders on minorities, who are often seen as more violent and who tend to suffer from biases that can result in their work being undervalued. Gender bias should be discussed, but I believe that racial bias is a bigger problem.

 

[b.shahvir]

One of my friends was put in the hospital by another woman. Violence certainly isn't reserved to men. Stereotypes that allow women to abuse men should be challenged, just like stereotypes that result in mistreatment of women in science need to be challenged.

I don't like electron proton analogy because it puts people into one box or the other with no middle ground. If you want to talk about equality, no two people are the same. Small gender differences do exist, but when those differences are emphasized, it can be very frustrating and alienating to women in science who've been directly harmed by gender stereotypes and bias. You can't reason with a wild animal that is ready to pounce, but you can reason with other human beings.

We will never be free of bias. However, it's possible to reduce that bias by making people aware of it.

Racial bias, unfortunately, puts some of the negative stereotypes of both genders on minorities, who are often seen as more violent and who tend to suffer from biases that can result in their work being undervalued. Gender bias should be discussed, but I believe that racial bias is a bigger problem.

Although agreeable, challenging stereotypes is easier said than done. This is because stereotypes are not imaginations of a twisted mind but our strong perceptions about others built over time through practical observations & experiences which we as social beings encounter in everyday life. I need not emphasize more on this topic, there are enough examples of same in current media. When talking about equality, there cannot be any middle ground, for one is either 100% equal or 100% unequal. The differences, however small, will always be subject to bias. Although leadership as a trait is considered to be gender neutral, there will be marked differences in the styles of leadership exhibited by both genders, the question being which style of leadership will be most beneficial to society in a particular situation. If a style is unsuitable in that particular situation, it will be subject to bias. IMO, reasoning with a wild animal is still very much possible than trying to reason with some creatures of our very own species.;)

 

[stevendaryl]

I'm not sure why it's the case, nor do I have any suggestions for what to do about it, but from my interactions in Physics Forums, it seems that there are very few females who participate. I guess it's not always possible to know the gender by the user name or avatar, but of those participants where I have a good idea of the gender, I would estimate that 95% or more of the posts and comments are by males.

I'm wondering why that is. Is the interest in physics so different among males and females? Or is there something about the forum that is somehow more inviting to males or more intimidating to females? Any ideas, comments?

 

[dlgoff]

By my senior year of undergraduate studies, there were no females left. I don't know the reason though.

 

[Andy Resnick]

#Physicsgate

 

[WannabeNewton]

A lot of my physics friends are female so I don't think it's necessarily an issue of interest but rather of environment. My girlfriend has dealt with her fair share of sexism from physics students (mostly graduate students) and I'm sure she isn't an isolated case so women might just feel ostracized by the rather large number of the obnoxious, ignorant, and elitist men that do unfortunately run rampant in physics departments at various academic levels. One of the girls I tutor was seriously considering switching out of physics because of how inconsiderate one of her TAs was on account of her being female.

As far as this forum goes, a lot of the physics students I know don't know or don't use PF regardless of gender. I don't know if it has to do with being intimidated so much as just not having the time or effort to make threads on a website when it's much easier to just go to a professor or TA and ask the necessary questions. One of my friends is doing very time intensive research on top of taking a lot of graduate classes as an undergrad so there's no way she would find the time or interest to post on PF when the TAs and professors are readily accessible in the department. Of course all of my experience is in the physics department, I have no idea what the nature of the engineering department and such are.

 

[mfb]

In Germany, roughly 20% of the physicists and physics students are female, and I saw similar fractions in other countries.
To translate this to the fraction seen here, we would need some estimate how often men and women contribute to physics forums, how often they make their gender public, and how visible they are (which depends on the number of posts).

 

[stevendaryl]

We have a thread on this
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/where-did-all-the-physics-ladies-go.776615/

Over the past 13 years, our demographics haven't really changed.

Okay, so this thread is redundant. You could just shrug your shoulders and say, as Shyan does in that thread, that there are just differences between males and females, and so they are interested in different things. But the problem I see with such an explanation is that what's considered "male stuff" versus "female stuff" CHANGES over the years. Once, teaching was once predominantly male, and once computer programming was predominantly female. Then in later years, that was reversed.

 

[SteamKing]

Once, teaching was once predominantly male, and once computer programming was predominantly female. Then in later years, that was reversed.

IDK about that. In my experience, most elementary school teachers have been female. In HS there was a more evenly mixed faculty by gender. I still think most elementary teachers are female though.

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=28

http://www.menteach.org/resources/data_about_men_teachers

As for programming, it's not clear if you are talking about females actually sitting down and writing code or if you are talking about females doing clerical stuff, like entering code into a computer. It used to be that a male programmer would write out his program or data on a coding sheet, and then turn the sheets over to a female keypunch operator to make a deck of cards. When interactive terminals replaced cards, the programmers would enter statements and data into the machine directly.

http://gender.stanford.edu/news/2011/researcher-reveals-how-%E2%80%9Ccomputer-geeks%E2%80%9D-replaced-%E2%80%9Ccomputergirls%E2%80%9D

http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/software-engineer/it-gender-gap-where-are-the-female-programmers/

 

[stevendaryl]

IDK about that. In my experience, most elementary school teachers have been female. In HS there was a more evenly mixed faculty by gender. I still think most elementary teachers are female though.

I'm talking about VERY long ago:

From colonial times to the early decades of the 19th century, most teachers were men.

http://www.pbs.org/onlyateacher/timeline.html

 

[SteamKing]

I'm talking about VERY long ago:http://www.pbs.org/onlyateacher/timeline.html

And that's relevant to the topic of this thread how?

 

[jz92wjaz]

In general, women online have to work to be seen as female. I think there are a lot of women out there who participate, but women online in Physics related forums are much more likely to be perceived as male than men are to be perceived as female. There are some out there who just roll with it when people assume they are male.

 

[CalcNerd]

A lot of them teach aeronautical engineering at schools like TOP GUN ie Dr. "Charlie" Blackwood with a degree in Astrophysics. Sorry, I couldn't help it. Got that stat from Hollywood!

I laughed at that the first time I watched the movie.

On a serious note, I kind of feel the education system steers girls away from the technical degrees, unless they're gifted vs. guys get the chance to fail and move onto something else. Human nature being what it is, no one likes to fail and a high percentage of average guys find a way to pass. While not a proven theory, it does explain why the women you see in these programs often excel over the average guy.

 

[Arsenic&Lace]

Well part of it is the culture of the genders which are distinct for biological/historical reasons. Men benefit, historically anyway, significantly more by being tough and competitive, so even comparatively "soft" male cultures like physics wind up with the attitude "This degree is tough, you will suffer. Shut up and Jackson", as a spillover from the more generic male mentality. So I think women, who's modern culture is driven by the idea that being happy is good, and you should pursue your passions*, may react strongly to the boot camp mentality often presented at a physics department.

*This is the upgraded culture women by and large seem to have gotten, which is a major improvement over the "Your duty is to have and raise children, and to take care of your husband." Aspects of it have been exported to left leaning men too but not entirely. This stuff is nuanced, subtle, and complex.

 

[BiGyElLoWhAt]

Shut up and Jackson",

I couldn't help but laugh at this.

 

[jz92wjaz]

Based on the research I've read, combined with personal experience, society is biased against women in that it underestimates their competence (when compared to men). Women tend to get fewer opportunities and are more likely to be doubted or questioned on their results, and are, in turn, more likely to doubt themselves and believe they can't cut it. My experience has also been that average ability women don't typically bother with Physics and Engineering, and you mostly wind up with the ones who are gifted and confident in their abilities.

Women are found in a lot of grueling fields where hard work and grit are highly valued, such as medicine and law. Women of equal innate ability are much more likely than their male counterparts to shy away from a career path where innate ability is highly valued, probably because of the self doubt that comes with the bias against women.

 

[Evan Maxwell]

I am sure that society can undervalue talented, capable women but I think there are many different factors here. I think the fact that girls who love science, math and engineering are not glamorized is a major issue - though it is one for young boys as well. I think that there is definitely subsets of physicists who can be unwelcoming or even downright vicious towards women, though i feel that most physicists are doing their best to get more women involved. And I think women being less likely to have natural passion and single-mindedness and natural interest to study physics at the highest levels could be a factor too. Not saying that women who have the same passion and laser like focus of the most capable men in physics don't exist - they do and they're everywhere. But it seems that if you take a group of men and women, each being the same size, on average there will be less women than men who have a natural desire to do it.

This is one of those problems where I feel that attributing it to just one factor of any kind is counter productive. Also, one should note that women outnumber men in the fast majority of fields besides physics, math and science. I am not sure about assuming that women are being devalued simply because they make up less than half of physicists. of course, we should try and make sure that it is at least more than like 10 % or so.

 

[b.shahvir]

It might have something to do with levels of testosterone in the brain...women have less %age of it.