Where did all the physics ladies go?

[Nikitin]

The text nowhere mentions those are Nobel Prize winners, or what their names are. It's a picture of all men in a document about the future of science. That's going to raise some eyebrows. How is it inspiring or bringing up examples, when there is no caption?.

Uhm I haven`t seen this document, so fair enough, I don`t know.

I don't have to write a paper, there are people whose expertise are these issues and they have spoken up. Curt Rice (Committee leader on Gender Balance and Diversity in Research in Norway) wrote: "It is true (I guess) that all the men in the pictures are Nobel winners, but that is not stated anywhere in the report, so to the extent that is supposed to be a justification, it's odd that one didn't even feel the need to explicitly make note of that in the report. Why not? Perhaps because those who put it together didn't find anything odd about their little collage. This is actually what they think science (and the future of science) in the Netherlands looks like."

It would discredit me when I point to a discrepancy? Four female Professors have written a newspaper article that the Netherlands should also be proud of female scientists and I admire them for it: they are setting an example.

Women just as welcome to STEM as men? I can tell you about the times I was denied based on prejudices, the sexist comments I receive. I rather not go there. Equal opportunity? No, definitely not.

To go back to the uncaptioned image, at the beginning of the year Elsevier was criticized for a similar image. Their response: Elsevier agrees with criticism about the lack of gender diversity in a recent email campaign. Raising awareness is good.

Gender research in Norway is a joke. They are the force behind highly politicized research on stuff like a person`s brain is a tabul rasa from birth, that parents should raise their children gender-neutral and so on. In addition to to silly research, they are responsible for stuff like Norway`s top technological schools are letting less qualified women enter before more qualified men because "it should be 50-50, otherwise the society is unfair".

Of course the Netherlands should be proud of their female scientists, they should be proud of all their scientists! But overreacting over some picture in some document will just make you look extreme. How important was that document anyway? I would spend my time fighting real sexism. Educate immigrants, create groups that give women a place to come for advice in case of discrimination and so on.

I don`t know what you went through, and I am sorry if it was discrimination, but here in Norway from my POV the opportunities are equal in STEM. At least in my university. I have many female friends, and not once have I heard a complaint about this. Actually, the only hyper-feminist I met was a guy.

 

[Monique]

Gender research in Norway is a joke.

The person is a committee member of Gender Balance and Diversity in Research, that's different from gender research :)

Of course the Netherlands should be proud of their female scientists, they should be proud of all their scientists! But overreacting over some picture in some document will just make you look extreme. How important was that document anyway? I would spend my time fighting real sexism. Educate immigrants, create groups that give women a place to come for advice in case of discrimination and so on.

The document is highly important: it's the scientific agenda for the next 10 years and should be read by every policy maker and scientist.

It's hard to change gender imbalance. Even if it is up-in-your-face, there is nothing that can be done. Unless you have suggestions? How about a job application with the following oral rejection: "you can't apply, we're not considering females".

Or how about of a pool of postdocs, of whom >50% are female. Ask group leaders to nominate excellent postdocs and end up with <10% females. Excellent females were even 'randomly' kicked out, because there was a surplus of candidates. When you ask "how is that possible", the reply is "we're also surprised that so few females were nominated".

The only thing to do is point to discrepancies and hope people will change their way.

 

[Nikitin]

Do you know the exact circumstances behind that post-doc thing? How do you know it's not a unique case outside of the norm? But indeed it is true that women are less loud and aggressive than males in general, so the probability of a woman to be less noticed in group-work settings would be higher I expect.

 

[jz92wjaz]

A female with a Physics GRE score of 700 is more likely to be successful in college than a male with a GRE of 700. A black student with a GRE of 700 is much more likely to be successful than a white student with a GRE of 700. For whatever reason, women and black students tend look worse on paper than they actually are, so if you're looking for the students who are most likely to succeed in your program, it makes sense to loosen the standards for certain minorities.

 

[Monique]

Do you know the exact circumstances behind that post-doc thing? How do you know it's not a unique case outside of the norm? But indeed it is true that women are less loud and aggressive than males in general, so the probability of a woman to be less noticed in group-work settings would be higher I expect.

The norm is that the number of females decreases the higher you get up the academic ladder, that's clearly documented. Not only for historic reasons, but also when you follow the current generation. I'm not sure what you mean with the exact circumstances.

 

[Monique]

About picking your battles, I've managed to keep my mouth shut about this commercial, where the little girl gets a vacuum cleaner and the little boy a science set. The commercial was create with racial sensitivity in mind (no Black Pete, St Nicholas gets a face of soot). Whether it is gender neutral... I'll look the other way ;)

 

[b.shahvir]

[QUOTE="Gender research in Norway is a joke. They are the force behind highly politicized research on stuff like a person`s brain is a tabul rasa from birth, that parents should raise their children gender-neutral and so on. In addition to to silly research, they are responsible for stuff like Norway`s top technological schools are letting less qualified women enter before more qualified men because "it should be 50-50, otherwise the society is unfair".[/QUOTE]

I would have to agree with Nikitin. In Nordic countries there is 30% reservation for women in every sector due to political pressure...equal opportunity for both genders?? IMO, both genders would be equal when man becomes pregnant! Until that time we should acknowledge the difference & leave it to nature.

[QUOTE="How about a job application with the following oral rejection: "you can't apply, we're not considering females".[/QUOTE]

This is not entirely true. It would come as a surprise to many on this forum but I have read several job classifieds in our local newspapers stating the following;
"Required Female only Marketing Engineers/Managers for a reputed company..."
"Required Female only Production Engineer for a reputed company..."
"Required young, dynamic, Female candidates of not more than 25 years of age for the post of Admin assistant and Secretary to CEO of reputed company", etc.

Above are just few examples of such job adverts which I happen to encounter frequently. Unfortunately (or fortunately for women) nobody has objected to such adverts despite their sexist nature. I feel gender diversity & equality issues are only appealing till the time it retains political hue else it would never gain prominence in society, the same goes for minorities. I don't see any black scientist in the list, guess why nobody is objecting to that!

 

[jz92wjaz]

The CEO of said reputed company in the last one sounds like a predatory creep. I think women would be wise to be wary of any job description that asks for a female applicant, especially a young one.

 

[b.shahvir]

On face value to say men & women are equal is like saying electrons = protons, negative charge = positive charge, North pole = South pole, gravitational force = centrifugal force...

 

[b.shahvir]

The CEO of said reputed company in the last one sounds like a predatory creep. I pity any woman who has to work with him. I think women would be wise to be wary of any job description that asks for a female applicant, especially a young one.

True, but I wonder why you have refrained from commenting on the first two adverts!

 

[jz92wjaz]

I did comment on the first two adverts, because I think it is wise for people to avoid applying for a position that is unnecessarily restricted to a race or gender. Those things shouldn't matter. Those adverts are problematic and none of them should exist.

 

[b.shahvir]

I did comment on the first two adverts, because I think it is wise for people to avoid applying for a position that is unnecessarily restricted to a race or gender. Those things shouldn't matter. Those adverts are problematic and none of them should exist.

Wisely said indeed but from personal experience I have observed several companies bend the rules in the name of gender diversity to 'accommodate' females in traditionally male dominated jobs. For eg. female engineers are mostly restricted to report making/desk jobs or sales marketing jobs, etc. and not given odd shifts or made to operate heavy electrical equipment without supervision. (some HV switchgears are really tough to operate even for men and forces one to re-evaluate one's fitness levels)This may not be the case everywhere or in all industries but from personal observation. So mostly it's just a PR exercise to satisfy the HR dept.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Women just as welcome to STEM as men? I can tell you about the times I was denied based on prejudices, the sexist comments I receive. I rather not go there. Equal opportunity? No, definitely not.

Monique, I have a few questions to ask you about this:

(1) Had you known beforehand that you would experience the instances of prejudices and sexist comments while working in science, would you still have considered pursuing a science career?

(2) One could argue that women in almost every professional field have experienced prejudice, sexist comments, and other such issues of some sort, with the exception of the few female-dominated jobs/professions. Are STEM jobs worse in this respect compared to other professional fields?

(3) To your knowledge, would you say that certain STEM fields are more hostile to women in terms of potential career advancement or a hospitable work environment than others?

 

[Monique]

I did comment on the first two adverts, because I think it is wise for people to avoid applying for a position that is unnecessarily restricted to a race or gender. Those things shouldn't matter. Those adverts are problematic and none of them should exist.

I fully agree.

 

[Monique]

(1) Had you known beforehand that you would experience the instances of prejudices and sexist comments while working in science, would you still have considered pursuing a science career?

Yes, because it's all I ever wanted. Now having experienced it I am seriously beginning to doubt a future, but then I'm faced with a lot of politics and legal stuff that is completely distracting me from the science. I'm feeling like dropping out, which I never could have imagined.

(2) One could argue that women in almost every professional field have experienced prejudice, sexist comments, and other such issues of some sort, with the exception of the few female-dominated jobs/professions. Are STEM jobs worse in this respect compared to other professional fields?

I have no way of knowing. I did work in a garage repairing car bodyworks for a while, I can imagine that is a tough world to get accepted in. I do notice that at social events with many people in -for instance- the marketing field / advertisement present, that there is not a single person who wants to know what I do for a living. The question does gets asked, but only to males. I'm sure it is present everywhere.

(3) To your knowledge, would you say that certain STEM fields are more hostile to women in terms of potential career advancement or a hospitable work environment than others?

I have no way of knowing.

Those are good thought-provoking questions, thanks for asking.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Yes, because it's all I ever wanted. Now having experienced it I am seriously beginning to doubt a future, but then I'm faced with a lot of politics and legal stuff that is completely distracting me from the science. I'm feeling like dropping out, which I never could have imagined.Those are good thought-provoking questions, thanks for asking.

Not a problem at all! I am sorry to read, however, that you're seriously doubting a future in science, and feeling like dropping out. Have you given much thought towards what other careers you may be thinking of pursuing? I know (from your PF profile) that you have a PhD in developmental biology/neuroscience, so at least one option that may be open to you is to work in the pharmaceutical or biotech industries. For example, GSK has a large research facility based in Belgium (which for a Dutch citizen as yourself is right next door).

 

[jack476]

On face value to say men & women are equal is like saying electrons = protons, negative charge = positive charge, North pole = South pole

Sure, they may point in different directions...but the magnitude of their respective charges and magnetic moments are the same ;)

 

[b.shahvir]

I did comment on the first two adverts, because I think it is wise for people to avoid applying for a position that is unnecessarily restricted to a race or gender. Those things shouldn't matter. Those adverts are problematic and none of them should exist.

I may be contradicting my own viewpoint, but technically there is no problem with the last advert as a female CEO might prefer a female secretary or admin assistant. After all, one has to feel comfortable with a sub-ordinate to work with.

Sure, they may point in different directions...but the magnitude of their respective charges and magnetic moments are the same ;)

Nicely pointed out but I was referring to absolute equality & not relative.

 

[b.shahvir]

Prejudice & politics is a result of power dynamics which equally affects both genders. For eg., if I were to encounter a tiger at this very moment, I will be a victim of inter species prejudice by the beast who will consider me as food. Going by popular conventional thinking, I will expect the tiger to treat me with respect as equal or even in high regard since as a human being I am intellectually superior to him. But common sense will eventually prevail & my focus will quickly shift from conventional thinking to self preservation. Applying conventional thinking in this case will be like expecting the tiger not to eat you just because you are a vegetarian! Prejudice & politics will only end if we have robots for bosses or colleagues.

Below is a social experiment video depicting public prejudice against men who are subject to gender violence by women

 

[zoki85]

When a women physically abuse a man, it must be a *true love*:

 

[b.shahvir]

When a women physically abuse a man, it must be a *true love*:

Lol but as far as I know this is some kind of sexual fetish.

 

[zoki85]

Lol but as far as I know this is some kind of sexual fetish.

Some have fetish for physics ladies and some for physical ladies:p

 

[b.shahvir]

Beats me where this thread is heading

 

[jz92wjaz]

One of my friends was put in the hospital by another woman. Violence certainly isn't reserved to men. Stereotypes that allow women to abuse men should be challenged, just like stereotypes that result in mistreatment of women in science need to be challenged.

I don't like electron proton analogy because it puts people into one box or the other with no middle ground. If you want to talk about equality, no two people are the same. Small gender differences do exist, but when those differences are emphasized, it can be very frustrating and alienating to women in science who've been directly harmed by gender stereotypes and bias. You can't reason with a wild animal that is ready to pounce, but you can reason with other human beings.

We will never be free of bias. However, it's possible to reduce that bias by making people aware of it.

Racial bias, unfortunately, puts some of the negative stereotypes of both genders on minorities, who are often seen as more violent and who tend to suffer from biases that can result in their work being undervalued. Gender bias should be discussed, but I believe that racial bias is a bigger problem.

 

[b.shahvir]

One of my friends was put in the hospital by another woman. Violence certainly isn't reserved to men. Stereotypes that allow women to abuse men should be challenged, just like stereotypes that result in mistreatment of women in science need to be challenged.

I don't like electron proton analogy because it puts people into one box or the other with no middle ground. If you want to talk about equality, no two people are the same. Small gender differences do exist, but when those differences are emphasized, it can be very frustrating and alienating to women in science who've been directly harmed by gender stereotypes and bias. You can't reason with a wild animal that is ready to pounce, but you can reason with other human beings.

We will never be free of bias. However, it's possible to reduce that bias by making people aware of it.

Racial bias, unfortunately, puts some of the negative stereotypes of both genders on minorities, who are often seen as more violent and who tend to suffer from biases that can result in their work being undervalued. Gender bias should be discussed, but I believe that racial bias is a bigger problem.

Although agreeable, challenging stereotypes is easier said than done. This is because stereotypes are not imaginations of a twisted mind but our strong perceptions about others built over time through practical observations & experiences which we as social beings encounter in everyday life. I need not emphasize more on this topic, there are enough examples of same in current media. When talking about equality, there cannot be any middle ground, for one is either 100% equal or 100% unequal. The differences, however small, will always be subject to bias. Although leadership as a trait is considered to be gender neutral, there will be marked differences in the styles of leadership exhibited by both genders, the question being which style of leadership will be most beneficial to society in a particular situation. If a style is unsuitable in that particular situation, it will be subject to bias. IMO, reasoning with a wild animal is still very much possible than trying to reason with some creatures of our very own species.;)

 

[stevendaryl]

I'm not sure why it's the case, nor do I have any suggestions for what to do about it, but from my interactions in Physics Forums, it seems that there are very few females who participate. I guess it's not always possible to know the gender by the user name or avatar, but of those participants where I have a good idea of the gender, I would estimate that 95% or more of the posts and comments are by males.

I'm wondering why that is. Is the interest in physics so different among males and females? Or is there something about the forum that is somehow more inviting to males or more intimidating to females? Any ideas, comments?

 

[dlgoff]

By my senior year of undergraduate studies, there were no females left. I don't know the reason though.

 

[Andy Resnick]

#Physicsgate

 

[WannabeNewton]

A lot of my physics friends are female so I don't think it's necessarily an issue of interest but rather of environment. My girlfriend has dealt with her fair share of sexism from physics students (mostly graduate students) and I'm sure she isn't an isolated case so women might just feel ostracized by the rather large number of the obnoxious, ignorant, and elitist men that do unfortunately run rampant in physics departments at various academic levels. One of the girls I tutor was seriously considering switching out of physics because of how inconsiderate one of her TAs was on account of her being female.

As far as this forum goes, a lot of the physics students I know don't know or don't use PF regardless of gender. I don't know if it has to do with being intimidated so much as just not having the time or effort to make threads on a website when it's much easier to just go to a professor or TA and ask the necessary questions. One of my friends is doing very time intensive research on top of taking a lot of graduate classes as an undergrad so there's no way she would find the time or interest to post on PF when the TAs and professors are readily accessible in the department. Of course all of my experience is in the physics department, I have no idea what the nature of the engineering department and such are.

 

[mfb]

In Germany, roughly 20% of the physicists and physics students are female, and I saw similar fractions in other countries.
To translate this to the fraction seen here, we would need some estimate how often men and women contribute to physics forums, how often they make their gender public, and how visible they are (which depends on the number of posts).