Where did all the physics ladies go?

[stevendaryl]

We have a thread on this
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/where-did-all-the-physics-ladies-go.776615/

Over the past 13 years, our demographics haven't really changed.

Okay, so this thread is redundant. You could just shrug your shoulders and say, as Shyan does in that thread, that there are just differences between males and females, and so they are interested in different things. But the problem I see with such an explanation is that what's considered "male stuff" versus "female stuff" CHANGES over the years. Once, teaching was once predominantly male, and once computer programming was predominantly female. Then in later years, that was reversed.

 

[SteamKing]

Once, teaching was once predominantly male, and once computer programming was predominantly female. Then in later years, that was reversed.

IDK about that. In my experience, most elementary school teachers have been female. In HS there was a more evenly mixed faculty by gender. I still think most elementary teachers are female though.

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=28

http://www.menteach.org/resources/data_about_men_teachers

As for programming, it's not clear if you are talking about females actually sitting down and writing code or if you are talking about females doing clerical stuff, like entering code into a computer. It used to be that a male programmer would write out his program or data on a coding sheet, and then turn the sheets over to a female keypunch operator to make a deck of cards. When interactive terminals replaced cards, the programmers would enter statements and data into the machine directly.

http://gender.stanford.edu/news/2011/researcher-reveals-how-%E2%80%9Ccomputer-geeks%E2%80%9D-replaced-%E2%80%9Ccomputergirls%E2%80%9D

http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/software-engineer/it-gender-gap-where-are-the-female-programmers/

 

[stevendaryl]

IDK about that. In my experience, most elementary school teachers have been female. In HS there was a more evenly mixed faculty by gender. I still think most elementary teachers are female though.

I'm talking about VERY long ago:

From colonial times to the early decades of the 19th century, most teachers were men.

http://www.pbs.org/onlyateacher/timeline.html

 

[SteamKing]

I'm talking about VERY long ago:http://www.pbs.org/onlyateacher/timeline.html

And that's relevant to the topic of this thread how?

 

[jz92wjaz]

In general, women online have to work to be seen as female. I think there are a lot of women out there who participate, but women online in Physics related forums are much more likely to be perceived as male than men are to be perceived as female. There are some out there who just roll with it when people assume they are male.

 

[CalcNerd]

A lot of them teach aeronautical engineering at schools like TOP GUN ie Dr. "Charlie" Blackwood with a degree in Astrophysics. Sorry, I couldn't help it. Got that stat from Hollywood!

I laughed at that the first time I watched the movie.

On a serious note, I kind of feel the education system steers girls away from the technical degrees, unless they're gifted vs. guys get the chance to fail and move onto something else. Human nature being what it is, no one likes to fail and a high percentage of average guys find a way to pass. While not a proven theory, it does explain why the women you see in these programs often excel over the average guy.

 

[Arsenic&Lace]

Well part of it is the culture of the genders which are distinct for biological/historical reasons. Men benefit, historically anyway, significantly more by being tough and competitive, so even comparatively "soft" male cultures like physics wind up with the attitude "This degree is tough, you will suffer. Shut up and Jackson", as a spillover from the more generic male mentality. So I think women, who's modern culture is driven by the idea that being happy is good, and you should pursue your passions*, may react strongly to the boot camp mentality often presented at a physics department.

*This is the upgraded culture women by and large seem to have gotten, which is a major improvement over the "Your duty is to have and raise children, and to take care of your husband." Aspects of it have been exported to left leaning men too but not entirely. This stuff is nuanced, subtle, and complex.

 

[BiGyElLoWhAt]

Shut up and Jackson",

I couldn't help but laugh at this.

 

[jz92wjaz]

Based on the research I've read, combined with personal experience, society is biased against women in that it underestimates their competence (when compared to men). Women tend to get fewer opportunities and are more likely to be doubted or questioned on their results, and are, in turn, more likely to doubt themselves and believe they can't cut it. My experience has also been that average ability women don't typically bother with Physics and Engineering, and you mostly wind up with the ones who are gifted and confident in their abilities.

Women are found in a lot of grueling fields where hard work and grit are highly valued, such as medicine and law. Women of equal innate ability are much more likely than their male counterparts to shy away from a career path where innate ability is highly valued, probably because of the self doubt that comes with the bias against women.

 

[Evan Maxwell]

I am sure that society can undervalue talented, capable women but I think there are many different factors here. I think the fact that girls who love science, math and engineering are not glamorized is a major issue - though it is one for young boys as well. I think that there is definitely subsets of physicists who can be unwelcoming or even downright vicious towards women, though i feel that most physicists are doing their best to get more women involved. And I think women being less likely to have natural passion and single-mindedness and natural interest to study physics at the highest levels could be a factor too. Not saying that women who have the same passion and laser like focus of the most capable men in physics don't exist - they do and they're everywhere. But it seems that if you take a group of men and women, each being the same size, on average there will be less women than men who have a natural desire to do it.

This is one of those problems where I feel that attributing it to just one factor of any kind is counter productive. Also, one should note that women outnumber men in the fast majority of fields besides physics, math and science. I am not sure about assuming that women are being devalued simply because they make up less than half of physicists. of course, we should try and make sure that it is at least more than like 10 % or so.

 

[b.shahvir]

It might have something to do with levels of testosterone in the brain...women have less %age of it.