Where Does the Equation E=p_x+\frac{p_y^2}{2m}+\frac{p_z^2}{2m} Come From?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the equation E=p_x+\frac{p_y^2}{2m}+\frac{p_z^2}{2m} using the Hamilton-Jacobi equation in the context of a particle moving in a potential U(r)=-Fx. Participants explore the relationship between the Hamiltonian and energy, as well as the implications of cyclic coordinates.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the transition from the Hamiltonian to the equation for E, seeking clarification on the derivation.
  • Another participant notes that the action is not explicitly a function of momenta and discusses the role of conserved momenta in the Hamilton-Jacobi equation.
  • A different participant explains that if the Hamiltonian is time-independent, energy is a conserved quantity, linking it to the conjugate variable in the action.
  • One participant questions why E should equal the Hamiltonian when the Hamiltonian is time-independent, pointing out the discrepancy between the Hamiltonian and the required value for E.
  • Another participant suggests that after substituting a specific form of the action into the time-independent Hamilton-Jacobi equation, one should derive a relationship involving E and the momenta.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the derivation of E from the Hamiltonian. There are competing interpretations and clarifications regarding the relationship between the Hamiltonian, energy, and the action.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved assumptions regarding the definitions of the variables involved and the specific steps in the derivation process. The discussion highlights the complexity of the Hamilton-Jacobi equation and its implications for energy conservation.

Piano man
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I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding part of this problem:

Using the Hamilton-Jacobi equation find the trajectory and the motion of a particle in the
potential [tex]U(r)=-Fx[/tex]

The Hamilton-Jacobi Equation: [tex]\frac{\partial S}{\partial t}+H(q_1,...,q_s;\frac{\partial S}{\partial q_1},...,\frac{\partial S}{\partial q_s};t)=0[/tex]

Starting off with the Hamiltonian:
[tex] H(p_x,p_y,p_z,x,y,z)=\frac{p_x^2}{2m}-Fx+\frac{p_y^2}{2m}+\frac{p_z^2}{2m}[/tex]

From HJE, since y and z are cyclic,
[tex] S(x,y,z;p_x,p_y,p_z;t)=-Et+p_yy+p_zz+S(x,p_x)[/tex]

All this is grand, but the next step in the solutions I have say that we can now say that [tex] E=p_x+\frac{p_y^2}{2m}+\frac{p_z^2}{2m}[/tex]

I don't see where this comes from.

Any ideas?
Thanks
 
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The action is not a function of the momenta explicitly. The conserved momenta (those that are conjugate to the cyclic coordinates, i.e. the coordinates that do not enter in the Hamiltonian explicitly) take the role of the arbitrary constants in finding the complete integral of the HJ eqn by the method of separation of variables.
 
Ok, but how does that explain where E comes from?
 
If the Hamiltonian is time-indpendent, then energy is a sonserved quantity and [itex]-E[/itex] is the corresponding "conjugate variable". By writing the action as:

[tex] S(q, t) = S_{0}(q) - E \, t[/tex]

the time-dependent HJ eqn:

[tex] \frac{\partial S}{\partial t} + H(q, \frac{\partial S}{\partial q}) = 0[/tex]

becomes:

[tex] \frac{\partial S}{\partial t} = -E, \; \frac{\partial S}{\partial q_{j}} = \frac{\partial S_{0}}{\partial q_{j}}[/tex]

[tex] H(q, \frac{\partial S_{0}}{\partial q}) = E[/tex]

This is the time-independent HJ eqn.
 
Right, but surely then, in the example above, E should equal H, since the Hamiltonian is time independent anyway.

But the Hamiltonian is [tex] H(p_x,p_y,p_z,x,y,z)=\frac{p_x^2}{2m}-Fx+\frac{p_y^2}{2m}+\frac{p_z^2}{2m}[/tex]

and the required value for E is
[tex] E=p_x+\frac{p_y^2}{2m}+\frac{p_z^2}{2m}[/tex]

Why is that?
 
I don't know what you are talking about. After you had substituted:

[tex] S_{0}(x, y, z) = f(x) + p_{y} \, y + p_{z} \, z[/tex]

into the time independent HJ eqn, you should get:

[tex] f'(x) = \left(2 m \, E - p^{2}_{y} - p^{2}_{z} + 2 m \, F \, x\right)^{\frac{1}{2}}[/tex]

Then, you should integrate this and you will get the complete integral. The arbitrary constants are [itex]p_{y}, p_{z} and E[/itex].
 

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