How Does the Darwin Term Relate to Commutators in Quantum Mechanics?

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the Darwin term in the context of the Dirac Hamiltonian, specifically within the framework of quantum mechanics as presented in Shankar's Principles of Quantum Mechanics. Participants are examining the relationship between commutators and the Darwin term, particularly in the Hydrogen Fine Structure section.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants explore the application of commutator identities and question the notation used in the derivation. There is an attempt to clarify the interpretation of double commutators and their implications for the equality being derived. Some participants also analyze specific components of the momentum operator and their interactions with potential functions.

Discussion Status

The discussion is ongoing, with participants providing clarifications and insights into the notation and mathematical relationships involved. There is an acknowledgment of the complexity of the notation, and some participants express gratitude for the guidance received, indicating a productive exchange of ideas without reaching a definitive conclusion.

Contextual Notes

Participants note potential confusion arising from the notation in the original text, particularly regarding the representation of commutators. There is also mention of specific assumptions about the operators and their relationships that are being examined.

Sigma057
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Homework Statement


I am trying to fill in the steps between equations in the derivation of the coordinate representation of the Darwin term of the Dirac Hamiltonian in the Hydrogen Fine Structure section in Shankar's Principles of Quantum Mechanics.

$$
H_D=\frac{1}{8 m^2 c^2}\left(-2\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\cdot \left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right]+\left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\cdot \overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right]\right)

=-\frac{1}{8 m^2 c^2}\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\cdot \left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right]
$$

Homework Equations


What Shankar calls the "chain rule for commutators of product" I think he means
$$[\text{AB},C]=A[B,C]+[A,C]B$$.

On the same page he mentions the identity
$$
\left[p_x,f (x)\right]=\text{-i$\hbar $}\frac{df}{dx}
$$

The Attempt at a Solution



One way this equality could be satisfied is if
$$\left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\cdot \overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right]=\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\cdot \left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right]$$

In component form this means
$$
\left[P_x^2+P_y^2+P_z^2,V\right]=\left(\overset{\wedge }{x}P_x+\overset{\wedge }{y}P_y+\overset{\wedge }{z}P_z\right)\cdot \left[\overset{\wedge }{x}P_x+\overset{\wedge }{y}P_y+\overset{\wedge }{z}P_z,V\right]
$$
$$
=\left(\overset{\wedge }{x}P_x+\overset{\wedge }{y}P_y+\overset{\wedge }{z}P_z\right)\cdot \left(\overset{\wedge }{x}\left[P_x,V\right]+\overset{\wedge }{y}\left[P_y,V\right]+\overset{\wedge }{z}\left[P_z,V\right]\right)
$$

Or
$$
\left[P_x^2,V\right]+\left[P_y^2,V\right]+\left[P_z^2,V\right]=P_x\left[P_x,V\right]+P_y\left[P_y,V\right]+P_z\left[P_z,V\right]
$$

One way this equality could be satisfied is if
$$
\left[P_i^2,V\right]=P_i\left[P_i,V\right]
$$

WLOG let's compute ##\left[P_x^2,V\right]## in the coordinate basis acting on a test function ##\phi(x)##

$$
\left[p_x^2,V\right]\phi =\left(p_x\left[p_x,V\right]+\left[p_x,V\right]p_x\right)\phi =p_x\left[p_x,V\right]\phi +\left[p_x,V\right]p_x\phi
$$

$$
=\text{-i$\hbar $}\frac{d}{dx}(\text{-i$\hbar $}\frac{dV}{dx})\phi+\text{-i$\hbar $}\frac{dV}{dx}(\text{-i$\hbar $}\frac{d}{dx})\phi

=

\text{-$\hbar ^2$}\frac{d}{dx}(\frac{dV}{dx}\phi)\text{-$\hbar ^2$}\frac{dV}{dx}\frac{d\phi}{dx}
$$

$$
=
\text{-$\hbar ^2$}(\frac{d^2V}{dx^2}\phi+\frac{dV}{dx}\frac{d\phi}{dx})

\text{-$\hbar^2$}\frac{dV}{dx}\frac{d\phi}{dx}

=\text{-$\hbar^2$}\frac{d^2V}{dx^2}\phi-2\text{$\hbar^2$}\frac{dV}{dx}\frac{d\phi}{dx}

$$

In comparison

$$

p_x\left[p_x,V\right]\phi = (\text{-i$\hbar$}\frac{d}{dx})(\text{-i$\hbar$}\frac{dV}{dx})\phi

=

\text{-$\hbar^2$}\frac{d}{dx}(\frac{dV}{dx}\phi)

=\text{-$\hbar^2$}(\frac{d^2V}{dx^2}\phi+\frac{dV}{dx}\frac{d\phi}{dx})

=\text{-$\hbar^2$}\frac{d^2V}{dx^2}\phi\text{-$\hbar^2$}\frac{dV}{dx}\frac{d\phi}{dx}

$$
I can't figure out where I've gone wrong.
 
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Sigma057 said:
$$
H_D=\frac{1}{8 m^2 c^2}\left(-2\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\cdot \left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right]+\left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\cdot \overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right]\right)

=-\frac{1}{8 m^2 c^2}\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\cdot \left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right]
$$
The notation is a bit confusing in the text. On the right side of the above equation, the text actually writes
$$
-\frac{1}{8 m^2 c^2}\left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\cdot \left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right] \right]
$$
I think this is to be interpreted as a double commutator.
$$
\left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\cdot \left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right] \right]

= \overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\cdot \left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right] - \left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right] \cdot \overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}
$$

The text reads
upload_2017-6-25_17-41-16.png


They should probably have included another comma in the double commutator
$$
\left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\cdot , \left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right] \right]
$$
 
TSny said:
The notation is a bit confusing in the text. On the right side of the above equation, the text actually writes
$$
-\frac{1}{8 m^2 c^2}\left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\cdot \left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right] \right]
$$
I think this is to be interpreted as a double commutator.
$$
\left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\cdot \left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right] \right]

= \overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\cdot \left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right] - \left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right] \cdot \overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}
$$

The text reads
View attachment 206055

They should probably have included another comma in the double commutator
$$
\left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\cdot , \left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right] \right]
$$

Thank you so much for your reply! Without it I would have probably skipped to the next equality and missed a valuable learning opportunity. I'll post my solution to the problem to assist future readers.

With your clarification I'll rewrite the problem statement as

$$
H_D=\frac{1}{8 m^2 c^2}\left(-2\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\cdot \left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right]+\left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\cdot \overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right]\right)

=-\frac{1}{8 m^2 c^2}\left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},\left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right]\right]
$$

Using the convention
$$
\overset{\rightharpoonup }{A} \overset{\rightharpoonup }{B}\equiv \overset{\rightharpoonup }{A}\cdot \overset{\rightharpoonup }{B}
$$

I will also make use of the chain rule for commutators of vector operator products, which follows easily from the chain rule for scalar operator products as a consequence of the definition of the dot product and the linearity of the commutator.

$$
\left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{A}\cdot \overset{\rightharpoonup }{B},C\right]=\overset{\rightharpoonup }{A}\cdot \left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{B},C\right]+\left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{A},C\right]\cdot \overset{\rightharpoonup }{B}
$$

I can now finally fill in the steps between these equations.
$$
H_D=\frac{1}{8 m^2 c^2}\left(-2\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\cdot \left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right]+\left(\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\cdot \left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right]+\left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right]\cdot \overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\right)\right)

=\frac{1}{8 m^2 c^2}\left(-\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\cdot \left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right]+\left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right]\cdot \overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\right)=-\frac{1}{8 m^2 c^2}\left(\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\cdot \left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right]-\left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right]\cdot \overset{\rightharpoonup }{P}\right)=-\frac{1}{8 m^2 c^2}\left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},\left[\overset{\rightharpoonup }{P},V\right]\right]
$$

Thanks for all your help!
 
Looks good.
 

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