Which logical fallacies are these?

[27Thousand]

This has already been explained to you 27thousand. You are overthinking their responses and giving them answers which they are not looking for.

The fact you said they laughed after saying "not from a book" shows they are messing with you. You're just too **** to see it.

I will not respond any further as you have already had responses from myself and others concerning what you have said. All previous comments from myself, dave etc are correct (except the one you made). They point out the flaws in your thinking and your responses.

I refuse to argue such a dumb thread anymore. Accept what you have been told. You wanted everyone to agree with you. They haven't. Deal with it.

Jared Over and Out!

And if you would just read the history of how Isaac Newton came up with gravity, how those with patents for camera phones came up with the idea, etc, for every scientific discovery and invention ever made, you'd understand how I wasn't plagiarizing.

You're phrase "Jared Over and Out", I hear people say "over and out" quite a bit. Hmmm? You're involved in plagiarism? Doesn't something sound ridiculous here? Or you say "I refuse to argue such a dumb thread anymore." People say "I refuse to do this" all the time, and use words like dumb all the time. You say I argue semantics and weird details? That's because I feel those are the same semantics and details you use against me in those original three roommate examples! I'm not understanding why I'm from a book and plagiarizer? Doesn't something seem wrong with the picture here?

 

[27Thousand]

Ooh look, to string it out you are once again arguing a pointless phrase from a previous post...

It is plagiarism because you quote the film, which had a writer (therefore quoting the writer) and simply changed a word. Copying from one source, hence, PLAGIARISM.

I suggest you learn what plagiarism is before debating it. Your cell phone crap has nothing to do with it. They sourced the technology, PAYING to use the technology (so as not to break a patent) and combined it. So, NOT PLAGIARISM. There was nothing copied about the technology (not in the plagiarism sense).

Look up the definition of plagiarism and you'll realize just how ridiculous your little cell phone speech is.

edit: in fact here it is -

"the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work."

Note the word "unauthorised". So the cell phone using legal methods to obtain the technology is not plagiarism. If they broke into the patent office and stole the plans then yes, it would be. But they didn't

You, taking the phrase from a film writer without permission and changing a word, claiming you then 'created' the phrase IS plagiarism.

There is a difference. Look things up before arguing them.

"Newton's Apple, understanding the world around you," and person says, "I hate route learning, I like meaning," to, "I'm just trying to conceptualize the world around me," is not plagiarism. It's not changing one word. It's almost because I use the word "conceptualize" rather than another word, you assume it's plagiarism. The context of the phrase is different than the television show I saw decades earlier; more like when common people say they hate route learning.

You didn't give me a reference for your stepping stones when you said "Jared over and out"? If someone got after because of that, you'd think they're weird. When my roommate quoted Princess Bride saying that he was creative, he didn't give a reference. I guess he assumed he didn't need to because you hear people quoting those same exact lines all the time and then you hear someone else say, "I love Princess Bride!"

I know what plagiarism is, and it was no more plagiarism than Newton plagiarizing gravity by combining various ideas. Thomas Edison plagiarizing the light bulb by coming up with a better version; I could go on forever. If you said it's plagiarism without a reference, I gave a reference for my stepping stones. You never even gave me a reference for your "over and out". What's up with all this "plagiarism crap"? Don't you think it's ridiculous?

 

[JaredJames]

I'm not the one complaining here. You made a ridiculous thread. Can't accept what you have been told. And now are arguing stupid little things about statements made.

I'm not passing "over and out" as a phrase I made up. So it isn't plagiarism. Full stop.
You claimed "conceptualize the world around me" as your own. When you copied it from a film (without permission) and simply changed a word and said in earlier posts you 'created it'. Plagiarism. There is no more to say on it.

Did Newton claim all the work as his own?

 

[Ophiolite]

Where to begin.
First of all its rote learning, not route learning.

Secondly, Jared is being a little harsh in saying its plagiarism, but that's because you seem to genuinely believe changing a single word in a phrase you heard on a film was an example of creative and original thinking.
What we are all saying is that it had a tiny,miniscule, itsy-witsy, teeny-weeny, microscopically small, fragement of orginality, but it is so small that to credit yourself as having been original in changing that one word makes me wonder if you have the intellectual skills of a stuffed aardvark in a tea cosy.
So, strictly speaking, I'll say "Jared, plagiarism? A bit harsh. He's acknowledged he got it somewhere else. He hasn't stolen it. The only thing he's done wrong is to deceive himself that it was a significantly creative action, changing that one word."

Next, your first example may not have been from a book but it was from a film so your roommates had it more or less right. It wasn't original.
Your spouting of 101 psychology i answer to a simple question was based entirely on what you had just learned in class - book larning again my lad.
Your brain drilling example is so contorted in its presentation I can't even be bothered to comment on it.

Let me be really rude. I'll hate myself in the morning, but what the hell.
What is your IQ? And while I am at it, how old are you?

(And while you are thinking about how some of us have been quite rude to you, recognise we are all still hanging in here, trying to help you make sense of it all, even though you are acting just as thick as a chocolate shake with added quick dry cement.)

 

[JaredJames]

Where to begin.
Secondly, Jared is being a little harsh in saying its plagiarism, but that's because you seem to genuinely believe changing a single word in a phrase you heard on a film was an example of creative and original thinking.
What we are all saying is that it had a tiny,miniscule, itsy-witsy, teeny-weeny, microscopically small, fragement of orginality, but it is so small that to credit yourself as having been original in changing that one word makes me wonder if you have the intellectual skills of a stuffed aardvark in a tea cosy.
So, strictly speaking, I'll say "Jared, plagiarism? A bit harsh. He's acknowledged he got it somewhere else. He hasn't stolen it. The only thing he's done wrong is to deceive himself that it was a significantly creative action, changing that one word."

Just to point out, I didn't mean it seriously (as per previous posts) it was simply because he was failing to respond to anything less than an all out accusation (one I wish I hadn't made, jokingly or otherwise!).

 

[Ophiolite]

Did Newton claim all the work as his own?

And in case you are in any doubt 27 recall that he said this in a letter to Robert Hooke: "If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."

(Which given that Hooke was a hunchback has been seen by some as a not so subtle (but decidedly creative) dig by Newton.)

And while we are on the subject, there is a story I like about Einstein. At a dinner a neighbouring guest took out a small notebook and wrote in it several times during the meal. When Einstein asked him what he was doing the man replied, "Whenever I have a good idea I jot it down in my notebook for future reference. You should try it."

Einstein paused for a moment then said, "No. There would be little point. I have only had one or two good ideas in my entire life."

You are coming across like the dinner guest who sees his own creativity in the most mundane things. Why not try being more like Einstein. Maybe one day you might have a good idea too.

Just to point out, I didn't mean it seriously

No. I got that, but I don't think our literalist friend did.

 

[JaredJames]

And in case you are in any doubt 27 recall that he said this in a letter to Robert Hooke: "If I have seen farther it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."

(Which given that Hooke was a hunchback has been seen by some as a not so subtle (but decidedly creative) dig by Newton.)

Wow, didn't know that. Congratulations, you have just made the first interesting post in this thread!

 

[DaveC426913]

I think that 27K's question has been given enough attention. Time to move on.

 

[JaredJames]

I think that 27K's question has been given enough attention. Time to move on.

Here Here!

 

[27Thousand]

Secondly, Jared is being a little harsh in saying its plagiarism, but that's because you seem to genuinely believe changing a single word in a phrase you heard on a film was an example of creative and original thinking.

Well for extra credit in one of my classes, I went to the University's Counseling Center where they were testing students' IQ's. They gave the test to the participants over the span of two days. I scored 131. Later I took an online Tickle IQ Test, although not official like the University's test, and scored a 133. So I think there was some consistency. However, whenever I take online "interpersonal communication skills" tests, I always score extremely low on interpersonal communication. I have a hunch that's why I have trouble communicating in non-university settings, am accused of being over analytical to people, and accused of taking them literally. My University GPA is 3.81, and my professors always say they like my critical thinking essays in class. However, when I'm not around those educated in areas that I'm immersed in, everything breaks down. It's almost like I can't adapt to my audience. I have a hunch about all this. My parents said I didn't start talking until I was four. They took me to a doctor, who said that there was nothing wrong with my hearing, only that I didn't seem to interact. Then most of my life I would read about Science, do nothing else, and avoid talking to others. So I think my social/interpersonal communication skills may have been screwed up because of it. However, that's only a thought I have.


By the way, I wasn't trying to pass that phrase off as a magnificent work of art. It's just how I felt at the time. I was only trying to communicate with my roommate (yes I already know my social skills aren't great). I didn't change one word. The only part I took from TV I heard years ago was "the world around". From, "Newton's Apple, understanding the world around you," to, "I'm just trying to conceptualize the world around me." It was more taken from people who say they hate rote learning. Then I heard the phrase, "I think in concepts." So I juxtaposed them together, so I could communicate with people. From my perspective, I felt the same way you'd feel if you were eating breakfast and someone said, "Nope, breakfast is in a book." As far as the context of the situation, since my roommate later quoted phrases Princess Bride, lines from a movie, why was I any less justified in what I said?

Your brain drilling example is so contorted in its presentation I can't even be bothered to comment on it.

That's why I became frustrated when he said, "Not from a book." I thought it was too cheesy of an example to be found in a book; I was just playing around. So when he said, "Not from a book," and then when his reason was something you actually hear from books a lot, something felt fishy.

Your spouting of 101 psychology i answer to a simple question was based entirely on what you had just learned in class - book larning again my lad.

For me, there was more to it than that. I thought across the disciplines to come up with an unusual answer for operant conditioning, not the usual from class. When people say professors don't want what's from the book, but rather you to think, they mean just regurgitating facts from the book. I was thinking outside of the book, if the definition means that. If I think across the disciplines, I don't understand how I'm regurgitating?

 

[27Thousand]

You are coming across like the dinner guest who sees his own creativity in the most mundane things. Why not try being more like Einstein. Maybe one day you might have a good idea too.

I didn't present these situations because I thought they were good ideas. I only presented them because of the context of them, I thought they weren't anymore taken from a book than my roommate's responses. Example three is too cheesy to be from a book, and wouldn't include it in a book. I just was frustrated that he passed it off as from a book, but then his answer was one of the most common answers found in books. Of course they were mundane ideas, but not anymore from a book than my roommates'. The point was to figure out better interpersonal communication skills in letting them know my personal thoughts aren't from a book, and to see if anyone thinks it's stupid to excuse any idea you don't like as being from a book.

 

[JaredJames]

You wanted us to reply with three things:
1) Your roommate is an idiot and had no right to tell you, you should be able to have your own thoughts and feelings.
2) Your response to the question 'why did he go upstairs?' was trully mind blowing and a damn good application of your knowledge.
3) Your phrase 'conceptualize the world around you' is brilliantly creative and obviously 'not from a book'.

The facts are:
1) Your roommate DID NOT at any point say you can't have thoughts and feelings of your own. You implied that by your own thinking.
2) You simply repeated textbook knowledge to him in a situation that did not warrant it. A simple "to sleep" would have sufficed. You applying it to a situation or not, it is still learn and repeat, just you insert words from your own scenario.
3) The fact is, it is from a book (or film). It wasn't creative at all, you just know how to use a thesaurus. Any further use of 'not from a book' would be a reference to the initial use of it by him to mock you.

Accept what you have been told. No, we didn't agree with you. But that's how life is. Most people go their whole lives without having a single 'good' idea. These most certainly aren't 'good' ideas on your part. Keep trying and one day you may get there. But you certainly aren't there right now. Especially not with this kind of thinking.

 

[Math Is Hard]

I think that 27K's question has been given enough attention. Time to move on.

Here Here!

Then you should stop positively reinforcing him with replies!

Seriously, 27, maybe you should check with your school and see if there are some counselors who could help you in developing your social skills a bit. This topic is starting to wear pretty thin.

 

[27Thousand]

You wanted us to reply with three things:
...
2) Your response to the question 'why did he go upstairs?' was trully mind blowing and a damn good application of your knowledge.

I emailed my professor and he said that he thought my example was a very deep understanding of how the concept works, and he said just to not worry about it because an education will get me further than what my roommate will have. Don't you hear people all the time say, "He's tired"? Although my response was geeky, was my roommates response any more thought out/less rote?

3) Your phrase 'conceptualize the world around you' is brilliantly creative and obviously 'not from a book'.

Where did I say it was brilliantly creative? I only what I said wasn't from a book, and described how I felt at the time.

The facts are:
1) Your roommate DID NOT at any point say you can't have thoughts and feelings of your own. You implied that by your own thinking.

If you say what you think, and someone says, "Not from a book," please explain how they are not discrediting your thoughts? If what I said was how I thought just as much as someone saying, "I'm happy," how is it supposed to be any less of a blow to being a person when someone says, "Not from a book"? I didn't even get it from a book. If he quotes lines from the movie Princess Bride, how is his response less from a book? Roommates tell others that they're going to the grocery store, and I see going to the grocery store in books/newspapers. So what?

2) You simply repeated textbook knowledge to him in a situation that did not warrant it. A simple "to sleep" would have sufficed. You applying it to a situation or not, it is still learn and repeat, just you insert words from your own scenario.

In hindsight, I agree that it was too much thought to share for the situation, but how was "he's tired" less ordinary? Which do you hear more often? Which answer was used in a more out of the ordinary way, even if neither was entertaining? Does "He's tired" sound extremely entertaining and original? Don't you think he could have been more "new" and creative than "he's tired"? Remember, Einstein said he wasn't trying to create, but rather discover.

3) The fact is, it is from a book (or film). It wasn't creative at all, you just know how to use a thesaurus. Any further use of 'not from a book' would be a reference to the initial use of it by him to mock you.

I don't understand why you say I got it from a thesaurus? Everyone knows the word "conceptualize"; the word is free for everyone to use. The only words I took from the television show decades ago was "the world around". I used multiple life experiences to create, "I'm just trying to conceptualize the world around me." It wasn't meant to be brilliant, but rather communicate my feelings at the time. That's why I got the impression he was saying not to have any feelings, because everything is automatically in a book.

 

[Ophiolite]

I don't understand why you say I got it from a thesaurus? Everyone knows the word "conceptualize"; the word is free for everyone to use. .

This is symptomatic of your entire problem.
A thesaurus, as I think you know, contains alternative words.
You used an alternative word, conceptualise, in your sentence.
When we say you got it from a thesaurus we are speaking figuratively. We are using a metaphor. We do not mean that you literally went to a library, headed for the reference section and consulted Roget's Thesaurus.

What we mean is you took an everday phrase, mentally checked your own vocabulary and substituted one of its words with one that resonated with you more effectively. You were consulting your own mental thesaurus. So, yes. We do say you got it from a thesaurus, because you did exactly that - not literally, but metaphorically.

What is astounding to me and I suspect the other posters is that you do not see this.
You think when your friends said 'From a book', they were talking literally.

Most people speak in metaphors most of the time.

If you want to survive in the big, cruel world (loads of metaphors there (you see, even loads of is another metaphor)) you had best start to appreciate that most speech is metaphorical not literal.

If you say what you think, and someone says, "Not from a book," please explain how they are not discrediting your thoughts?

No. It's been explained to you more than once already. Read the explanations. Your IQ isn't exceptional, but its adequate to understand the epxlanations given here.

What you still haven't explained why the **** it matters.

 

[JaredJames]

I emailed my professor and he said that he thought my example was a very deep understanding of how the concept works, and he said just to not worry about it because an education will get me further than what my roommate will have. Don't you hear people all the time say, "He's tired"? Although my response was geeky, was my roommates response any more thought out/less rote?

By the way you are talking I'd say you are about 14. A kid. As everyone has pointed out before. Your peers (the professor in this case) would have like your answer. Your friends wouldn't as they are not in the same field as you. His response was perfectly valid and showed his annoyance at you, mocking you. Look up the word peers.

Where did I say it was brilliantly creative? I only what I said wasn't from a book, and described how I felt at the time.

You didn't say it, I never said you did, you tried to argue to us that it was creative and wanted us to respond with how brilliant it is.

If you say what you think, and someone says, "Not from a book," please explain how they are not discrediting your thoughts? If what I said was how I thought just as much as someone saying, "I'm happy," how is it supposed to be any less of a blow to being a person when someone says, "Not from a book"? I didn't even get it from a book. If he quotes lines from the movie Princess Bride, how is his response less from a book? Roommates tell others that they're going to the grocery store, and I see going to the grocery store in books/newspapers. So what?

They are taking the p***. Why do you take everything so literally?

In hindsight, I agree that it was too much thought to share for the situation, but how was "he's tired" less ordinary? Which do you hear more often? Which answer was used in a more out of the ordinary way, even if neither was entertaining? Does "He's tired" sound extremely entertaining and original? Don't you think he could have been more "new" and creative than "he's tired"? Remember, Einstein said he wasn't trying to create, but rather discover.

Look, when asked "why did he go upstairs" there are a number of ways to respond and the roommate wasn't looking for a lecture. He wanted a simple "to sleep" or perhaps something humourous. By giving a lecture of textbook psychology, you fueled their jokes and annoyed them at the same time by giving such a long and pointless answer. STOP COMPARING YOURSELF TO EINSTEIN AND NEWTON! When with peers yes, give the long answers because they'll like them. When with friends react how they would expect.

I don't understand why you say I got it from a thesaurus? Everyone knows the word "conceptualize"; the word is free for everyone to use. The only words I took from the television show decades ago was "the world around". I used multiple life experiences to create, "I'm just trying to conceptualize the world around me." It wasn't meant to be brilliant, but rather communicate my feelings at the time. That's why I got the impression he was saying not to have any feelings, because everything is automatically in a book.

I didn't know the word conceptualize. Regardless, he was mocking you. Until you can understand this I suggest you stop leading yourself into those situations.

You sound about 14 to me, like a kid. You are still arguing irrelevant points. The only thing I want a response to are these:

1) Why does it matter to you so much? Why do you give a ****?
2) Do you understand the advice given? Can you see why your responses are inapropriate and simply fuel your friends attitude?

 

[27Thousand]

It's not plagiarism

I went to answers.yahoo.com to find out about this.

I asked if this is considered plagiarism in the Law section and these were the responses I received:

(First Person)
No it is not and your friend is pulling your chain.
Plagiarism is stealing a known persons ideas, writings and image
Using your friend's theory we could not even say Happy Birthday to each other since someone owns the rights to that song.

(Second Person)
you will find your phrase on this blog. goto 27 thousan's comments.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread ... (hmmm, I guess it's a small world.)

(Third Person)
I think you are wasting a lot of time thinking about something so trivial. It is not plagiarism to quote anything. Plagiarism is copying someone else's written work.



See, I think it's trivial that someone would say it's plagiarism, while it really isn't. I also think it's just as ridiculous as someone saying you can't say "Happy Birthday!"

Although I don't think, "I'm just trying to conceptualize the world around me," is anything profound, it's how my feelings were at the time. All I did was pulled "the world around" from the tv show to create my feelings, not even the same thing.

 

[27Thousand]

You didn't say it, I never said you did, you tried to argue to us that it was creative and wanted us to respond with how brilliant it is.

Where did I argue that it was brilliant? Which post? I never said it was brilliant, I only said I wasn't copying a book. The only words I took from Newton's Apple show was "the world around" and turned it into "I'm just trying to conceptualize the world around me." Is it the same thing? My roommate later that day then started quoting lines from the movie Princess Bride, which I hear others do the same every once in a while. If someone told you that you can't say "He's watching TV" because TV is in a book, would you think that's logical? I went to answers.yahoo.com and asked if what I said was plagiarism, and they said no. And I never said it was brilliant, but rather I felt I had the right to express my feelings.

Look, when asked "why did he go upstairs" there are a number of ways to respond and the roommate wasn't looking for a lecture. He wanted a simple "to sleep" or perhaps something humourous.

I never said my answer was entertaining, I just don't see his "He's tired" as anymore cute and entertaining. They always say in working towards creativity, you should work on "thinking differently", "looking at things from a different angle," or "divergent thinking," and that you'll have to keep brainstorming past many bad ideas until one day you come to a great idea. Have you heard that before? I don't understand how him saying, "He's tired," is divergent thinking?

1) Why does it matter to you so much? Why do you give a ****?

Because - Although I'm not Newton or Einstein, I think all of us in this forum should strive to be more like them. They were both really into figuring out the underlying logic of the Universe.

If a roommate asked you where another roommate was, and you said, "He's in the kitchen," what would you think if he said, "Not from a book, kitchen is found in a book. Be creative"? That's the same way I felt, and feel that I need to intellectualize against that type of logic.

Another way to look at it, Einstein would drive some of his professors crazy at the University (besides appearing lazy to them). He would go up to them and suggest an experiment to test his professors' ideas. His professors thought he was arrogant, and Einstein felt like he was suppressed because that wasn't his intent. Now think of it this way, how would Einstein think if his professors dismissed him with, "Nope, not from a book Einstein. Be creative"?

2) Do you understand the advice given? Can you see why your responses are inapropriate and simply fuel your friends attitude?

Yes, I already understand how the first two examples may have been not socially greased up. I was simply saying that I don't understand how I was relying more on a book/being less divergent thinking than he was, even if my responses weren't all that great. I'm just trying to look at the bigger picture than the social situation involved.

In the third example, he asked me what the main weakness of the Scientific Method is. So it would seem the context says my answer could be given. I also don't understand why you think my answer was more from a book? You hear books talk about the null hypothesis and how that's a weakness of the Scientific Method all the time. On the other hand, which book says that a possible way it could go wrong is scientists drillings holes into peoples' heads to release evil spirits? I can't think of where that hypothetical example is given, nor any reasonable scientists who would conduct that experimental control study.

For the third example, if someone was watching American Idol and told you, "I think such and such will win," would you say, "Not from a book. I've seen American Idol in a book"? Although American Idol is not that person's idea, if they say they think such and such will win, and they never announced that person will win on TV, then it's an idea that they didn't get from a book. If that person didn't read about American Idol in a book, I don't understand why you'd even say that to them? My roommate's response of the null hypothesis being a weakness is said all the time in college research/statistics textbooks, which I found out that he had taken earlier. Does that make sense where I'm coming from?

 

[27Thousand]

We are using a metaphor.

What you still haven't explained why the **** it matters.

I understand that you're saying I wasn't socially skilled in those situations (although example three the context of it would say differently, based on what he asked and his response).


I just combined most of my response for your post with that for Jared's, just found directly above. It talks about why it matters.

 

[27Thousand]

Seriously, 27, maybe you should check with your school and see if there are some counselors who could help you in developing your social skills a bit. This topic is starting to wear pretty thin.

Okay, so here's a concern I have. Maybe you can address it, since my social skills may not be good enough to ward this irrationality off. Let's say I take an Interpersonal Communications college course. They have textbooks, which have techniques in becoming better interpersonal wise. What if a roommate were to say, "Nope, not from a book. Interpersonal communication techniques are found in a book. If you read about them, then try them out for yourself and it works for you, that's not being creative because others use those techniques. In a thousand years from now, they may have better interpersonal communication techniques in books, because knowledge changes over time, which you could pioneer. So don't even take the class because they aren't ideas of your own. Galileo was creative. Be more like him. The book will talk about how people use eye contact to communicate with each other. You need to be more creative, and not use eye contact when talking with people. Einstein was creative."

Okay, I think that's irrational. Does anyone else here see how irrational that possible response is? If that happens, how would I respond? What type of interpersonal communication skills could I use to defend myself taking an interpersonal communications class?

 

[Ophiolite]

What type of interpersonal communication skills could I use to defend myself taking an interpersonal communications class?

Laugh in their face, tell them to **** off, then go for a beer with someone who matters.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Game over, 27Thousand. I don't think you are sincere. You're just messing around with the members here.